Patch 1.18.1 broke the rogue class: please fix it

[Scorpsefx]

100% get rid of the multi-poison / weapon set garbage. Huge thumbs down.

Trying to play a video game for fun - not micro-manage poisons and weapon swaps based on monster type.

Doing normal vanilla quests in certain areas while leveling before you got Dissolvent was a full skip until later (e.g. searing gorge war mechs, etc - and by then who cares to go back unless you're being a completionist).

I rarely complain in games (POE, League, etc) for game design shit and just take what the designers give me cause I trust their process... but this poison shit is way too pedantic and not interesting.

[Denin]

I am of the opinion Noxious assault spec should be completely redesigned, it never made much sense why Turtle designed a spec like that. From the moment it was released it just seemed really strange.

But since that probably wont happen, at least not anytime soon then yeah else i mostly agree with the OP.
At least let it have a poison that works on everything.

I expected Turtle to nerf it a bit, it was definitely needed, it's probably still needed. But I didn't expect this, now i feel forced to run around with an extra set of weapons in my bags, thats pretty terrible class design imo.
The fact that weapon dmg barely matters already is bad enough, this makes it even worse.

[Visseth]

Fully support the need for a fix to this!


Another thing on this matter:
If you want to play rogue efficiently on this patch, you need to have 2 different weapon sets. This creates a negative stance towards every rogue on the server, since you are now rolling for twice as many weapons in the endgame; potentially or most likely rolling away some weapons for other classes.


Maybe it would be best to increase overall dmg of rogues and lower the poison dps % contributing to dps; the QoL aspect is something very annoying - i understand it from a lore perspective, but it makes things so much worse, that i would get rid of it overall and just go with direct dps poisons and dot poisons to choose from; not depending on mob-type.


I don't know the tech behind it, but my guess is, that the direction Turtle went with rogues was to balance pvp and pve; why not splitting that part alltogether, so that pvp works different than pve to balance things out? Shouldn't such an approach be feasable and doable?

[Rheinwg]

Fully support the need for a fix to this!


Another thing on this matter:
If you want to play rogue efficiently on this patch, you need to have 2 different weapon sets. This creates a negative stance towards every rogue on the server, since you are now rolling for twice as many weapons in the endgame; potentially or most likely rolling away some weapons for other classes.


Maybe it would be best to increase overall dmg of rogues and lower the poison dps % contributing to dps; the QoL aspect is something very annoying - i understand it from a lore perspective, but it makes things so much worse, that i would get rid of it overall and just go with direct dps poisons and dot poisons to choose from; not depending on mob-type.


I don't know the tech behind it, but my guess is, that the direction Turtle went with rogues was to balance pvp and pve; why not splitting that part alltogether, so that pvp works different than pve to balance things out? Shouldn't such an approach be feasable and doable?

Loot is not a big issue currently tbh, because we dont need the same weapons as other classes! and the ones we could share are unique anyways.

Just removing the invulneraility, or making dissolvent poison work on everything (is already weaker than instant) would fix the issue.

And lastly, pvp has dampening afaik, so poisons work differently there anyways. And they could make it so dissolvent doesnt work on players and call it a day.

[Blindtongue]

Dafuq you on about Hory?

PVP Hemo is not dead lol, Envenom Hemo is the most powerful 1v1 Rogue build out there lol.

Assassination does a boat load of damage yes, but it comes at a big trade of having almost no utility.

You cannot access prep which is why a Sub Hemo rogue will fuck up an assasination rogue 1v1 99% of the times.

Other thing is, dafuq you guys on about, how the fuck do you plan to kill a 7k hp 10k armor bear in BGs???

By dancing around him for 40+ seconds and keeping him in stunlock? Hahahhahaha.

Gheez fuck, can you all stop living in imaginary la - la land where you guys think every rogue player needs to play perfectly to get a kill like this is some World of Rogue craft shit?

Stunlocking was rogue PVP meta for 20+ years, when we were killing folks in stunlocks it was "oh you are only winning because of stuns" but now when you can make a build that doesn't even need stuns its "oh you got too much damage" lol no shit.

Noxious got nerfed hard, its 30% from 45% ap scaling, dampening affects us in BG's now and dissolvents no longer work on players or scale with TFB but i guess you Error noobs still haven't caught up, go raid with 1.2 weapon as Rag thinks is still the meta xD

Combat Envenom is the go to PVE spec now and it only shows Noxious was never as important as Envenom since Envenom carries all our damage which is shown by only 2 viable hybrid builds in the game for PVE and PVP being a Combat Envenom and Hemo Envenom hybrids.

And this is coming from a guy who told everyone Noxious will be op before it even dropped, I was literally the only Rogue main warrning folks in Twow channel, its much more in line now and honestly I don't see it as such a problem, you still can get wrecked equally fast in PVP by warrs, ferals and hunters. Matter of fact seen Beastmasters wipe folks with 3k pet crits lol, seen druids eat folks with 0 resistance but nooo somehow Assassination is OP because its the only viable class build in the entire game that lets you deal with plate in melee effectively lol.

Hemo's only problem is that it now costs 1 extra point to have the energy efficiency that it used to with 21, but 28/0/23 or 22/0/27 are extremely viable for PvP especially 1v1 and wpvp scenarios they outperform assassination by a loooooooong shot since you simply have more tools and your dmg is like 80% of assassination upfront but you can have much bigger short time burst due to chaining shit with Cold Blood / Prep.

This whole topic is complete nonsense from someone who reminisences on the idea of being a "skillful player" but fails to see how the whole game evolved past that shit, bro you had k40 gear and tried to make sub work and still sucked with it, gimme a break, go learn to play Envenom Hemo and get good at 1v1 its not a class issue its a player issue.


Can we please not have PVE rogues dictate on PVP changes? Its what made Sub shit in the first place, devs shoehorning it into a raid centric support talent tree that literally people have to force themselves to play how unintuitive and unimaginative it is.

You guys will make the class totally useless with your dumb suggestions.

The poison swap is not nearly as annoying as you guys make it out to be, it creates some friction and actually shows how much ahead you plan your playstyle... bigger problem is some monsters like Sommnus dragon or 2 last bosses in Sunken Temple not being affected by dissolvents while being immune to instants meaning you can only fight them with your physical damage which will suck big time no matter your gear and spec since Envenom does all the heavy lifting on our DPS meters now, Noxious was never such a big part of our damage (which no one knows cuz no one here touched Assassination before they introduced Noxious lol).

Imo it should be made that both poisons do only partial like 33% dmg to their non-intended targets instead of full immunity since its such a problem for 99% of rogue playerbase lol, just cuz you DPS doesn't mean your DPS has to be 100% effective at all situations so I don't even see what the complaint is "oh noo, we aint topping dps meters IN EVERY POSSIBLE SITUATION" lol.

Assassination is absolutely necessary as force multiplier at the current game balance stage since its the only thing making Plates hesitant else warriors and paladins and ferals would fucking steamroll every fucking BG they are in and you would do what, stop them with 30 sec dance around them to do barely 50% of their hp as dmg just to prove how skilled you are?

Lol gimme a break, learn to play assassination to its strength and not bitch about its weaknesses, it requires a completely different gameplay approach and thats why most assassins suck at playing assassination cuz you all too stuck up in that whole sub playstyle thing, go sap folksif thats your thing because sub is a raid centric support spec here so what exactly do you expect to do with it?

With good gear you can even go 22/8/21 for Cold Blood, Envenom, Imp Backstab and Preparation but you Error gameplayer gods knew that right? That build is literally best of all worlds, you anahilate clothies due to ambush / backstab on top of poisons but poisons with SS spam on plates work just as well as old Assasination used to.

The rogue is at its most versitile state its ever been simply cuz they moved Envenom to 21 pointers and it opened up all the effective hybrid builds to work since they can actually deal non phys dmg now and be a threat to armored folks where EA is not enough on its own.

Please if assasination is so braindead easy to play spec to it and let me see you trivializing everyone you will be getting killed after every opener and then you will bitch about "where my safety at, i cant play without prep???" which was the single biggest reason no one was playing assassination pre - noxious cuz they were losing prep and the trade off wasn't worth it at the time, now it is and most folks jumped on the hype train not even understanding you can have all the sub utility with 80% assassination damage if you just go Envenom Hemo lol.

Its literally the most complete PVP rogue build out there lol.

"It's a dumb, pure-damage spec that ruins how a rogue should play"

funny how i can say the same thing for current sub tree, replacing pure damage for "support only" spec lol

Dedicated PVE parsers shouldn't be talking about PVP balance, you guys are so out of your depth its just laughable

[Denin]

I def like how we can spec combat/envenom now. For me, right now, it's still weaker than my pure assasination. But it feels better to play for me.

While I can't stand playing noxious assault due to how it works, the trade of that evenom is higher up in the tree is nice.

In the end the poison situation is all that really annoys me.

It's simply very unfun to have to use two sets of weps in certain raids.

I could just not do that, but it pretty much halves my dps on those mobs if i do ignore it, so it's impossible to ignore.

Is it playable? Heck yes, it def is. But it's annoying. It lessens my will to play my rogue a lot, sad cause i do really enjoy it for the most part.

Just letting disolving and corrosive work on anything wouldnt be gamebreaking in any way, i fail to see how its wrong from a roleplay view either.

It would make rogue feel a lot more pleasant to play in pve, thats all, no more or less. Pvp wouldnt be affected in any way.

In their current state they are weaker than both instant and deadly poison after all.

Really doubt anyone would complain about changing this, and it would make more than a few rogue players happy. At least i am fairly sure it would.

[Horyoshi]

Another thing on this matter:
If you want to play rogue efficiently on this patch, you need to have 2 different weapon sets. This creates a negative stance towards every rogue on the server, since you are now rolling for twice as many weapons in the endgame; potentially or most likely rolling away some weapons for other classes.

Exactly. I had to create a whole addon around this to auto swap weapons. Creating solutions to problems that shouldn't even be there.

It's already hard to get your BiS weapons in a raid. Gotta wait for the drop and make sure to win it from other players. This makes us having to aim for 4 weapons. And most weapons are even unique, so you can't have 2 of them in your bag.

The whole poison swapping makes no sense in the design of the game.

@skincrawler/blindtongue, yeah I'm not gonna read that whole book. Such toxic behaviour got you kicked out of the guild. Sad you don't see your own problem as you continue to do so. Stop blaming ERROR and look into the mirror man.

[Lender]

Combat Envenom swords SS and daggers BS both outscale assa in current bis gear this phase (even in pre-raid bis). So they for sure don't need to 'put combat inline with assa.'

If they really want to fix things assa should scale more on weapons damage and attack power.

Because yeh without gear assa does great damage and then as soon as you get 0.5 and 2 decent weapons assa just sorta gets outshined. This phase you can for sure play assa throughout and do similar damage in bis vs a bis combat rogue. But ye after this the gap gets bigger and bigger.

They should rework assa not combat and yes 100% make dissolvent work on everything except PvP targets or make instant + deadly ignore immunities. Either could be a solution. I actually think keeping Dissolvent would be fine, just don't make it work in PvP and than occasionally you will have reasons to swap to deadly instant etc. for example chromagus because he can get nature vulnerable etc. And when AQ comes out you get upgrades to deadly making is possible to have choices.

[Nutcracker]

Hello Im making a suggestions there to help fixing the rogue cause the actual probleme is :

- The only spec valid to play in pvp right now is noxious and i would like to be able to play "Hemo spec" and "Backstab spec" noxious is fine for someone who starting playing rogue for the first time.

but its not how the rogue was supported to be u just spam noxious no placement is required like on the "Backstab Spec" or to do some heavy combo with hemo spec and preparation.

But both of this spec are not unplayable for few reasons :

- the backstab spec got killed when the dampening magic appeared i used to be able to ampush a clothplayer and do 1100 dmg when with the dampening magic the highest i got was 400 so that killed the backstab spec

- the hemo spec who rely on a big 5combo points coldblood eviseration its playable but its just really shiit right now cause of the % résilence reduction on crit that u get on the pvp gear who got implemented and didn't get a fix patch before the server closed so u basacly do no dmg at all

Is at what is supposed to be an assassin who wear leather and do less dmg than a warrior in plate ?
im not sure

- they also broke the "distract" to help hardcore player, the target is not redirected to a direction like it used to be but there just stuck in place witch isn't that optimal i would like to see my vanilla distract back since no harcore player is on the server and having that mechanic out doesn't feel very nice

how could we fix that ?

- remove dampening magic dmg reduction in bg and open world i was personally apreciating lot more when the server wasn't having that on turtle wow that would be the easier way to fix it so the backstab spec can come back and u will do more dmg with hemo even if ur 5combo point evi is still nerfed

- fix the pvp gear for other classe than warrior / druide / paladin / shaman that benefit nicely from the resilence but personally as a rogue i would rather have extra flat ap or penetration true resilence i don't need to tank more and right now im using the pvp gear just to flag run witch is kinda a waste.

[Eylo]

Yeah it's probably the worst designed class/spec/talent I've seen in any iteration of WoW, and I played SoD so that is saying something. level 60 rogues in the worst gear ever with white 1.3 speed level 10 daggers can outdps pretty much every class comfortably in PvE unless they are decked out in MC/exalted rep/hyjal epics during phase 1.

I was toping DPS charts on every raid on Turtle by a massive amount. I think this is the best asssassination rogue design what was ever made. Only issue is scaling, which doesn't give you a general iformation, about how to build your class. I agree combat swords should be an option.