Boosting Rule Adjustments

[Yotca]

So I'm assuming this reply & the rule changes come from my post in support help:

https://octowow.st/forum/viewtopic.php?t=732

They changed "no multiboxing on Y'shaarj" to allowing warlock summons/crafts.

I think the devs are somewhat delusional about what the Twow community was and how most of us want to play end game content and simply do not have the time to level more characters to help with our guilds etc outside of leveling our alts which is why people had characters on different accounts to begin with.

Hell even Blizzard never banned mob-tagging or boosting ; even in the open world and even on PvP servers. Because they fully understood that the people doing this do not have the time but have the means to pay (secondary accounts etc)

A lot of us ONLY purchase the QoL items for specific reasons; FRD shield? Need a robot. Too many items from the boost? Need bigger bags/robot/mail to send to alts etc!

If you check which characters purchased the robot it's mainly Paladins/Warriors/Shamans who can equip shields and make use of the FRD shield. I don't know a single person who's ever paid for a boost or even asked to purchase a boost from someone. They use it to farm but also to help level characters for themselves or their guild members.

Most people who are going to be making purchases from the donation shop are the people who DO NOT HAVE THE TIME OR ENERGY to level multiple characters from questing but have the financial means to make these purchases.

People take pauses, people don't have the same time, people don't have the same energy. A lot of us are older players with the means to purchase QoL items but there has to be a valid reason for it.

Banning RMT makes sense and we're all behind you on this topic ; but preventing players from leveling their own characters or helping their guild mates level the new healer we have to rush through MC/BWL so he's AQ ready for Friday because someone took a break and we're short on healers... is not a smart plan especially if you want people making donation shop purchases.

Also we're trying to convince and bring in players who are friends or guild members from Turtle or even other private servers ; when we're all 60 and raiding they don't want to have to level slowly for months (right now it's summer and many of us have the play time to level fast) to then finally join raids, when we've been telling them "Hey it's legit have some faith and come" and they finally decide to join us.

This is a decision I can't get behind and I've already made my purchases before these changes were announced -- with this specific game plan in mind which means either I get refunds because I'd have no use for many of the QoL items and many others will be in my situation and also ask for refunds.

Either way most of us honestly only care for end level PvP/raiding and we're the overwhelming majority

TLDR: RMT BAD AND BAN BUT LET LEVEL ALTS/FRIENDS AS TURTLE DID (even Blizz)

[Denin]

First of all i will say that i really enjoy Octo.

But i am not sure if this rule change is the best thing for the server, i can definitely live with it. But it seems to be the biggest effect will mostly be less people with alts.

Of course boosting for money and such should definitely be against the rules, but letting us run our alts through dungeons, that i fail to see anything wrong with. It's not even that good xp, i mostly did it to gear up my alts on Turtle.

Mob tagging in the world, ive never been a fan of. I don't mind if that is not allowed. It's an annoyance when you lvl normally and encounter such people.

But this seems like a rule that would be easy for a GM to make faulty judgement about, as it is not entirely clear.

And i'm not sure a rule like that truly can be completely obvious. May as well ban dual boxing in any combat situation, it would at least make it so it can't be misunderstood. I don't want that but this is a bit messy imo.

Have no plans to stop playing, and i don't regret my donations. But i disagree with this change, the ruleset Turtle ran with over 8 years was fine imo.

[Kestrel]

Hi everyone. English is not my first language, so I apologize for any mistakes. I am a casual player who doesn't follow the forums closely, but I have a few questions regarding some points raised in this thread.
Our small group of friends works full-time. We usually play together at our own pace, meaning our character levels can vary wildly depending on our work schedules, but try to save all group/dungeon content for when we can do it together, no matter the level.

1. Level Spread and Boosting Rules

* What specific level spread triggers the system's restrictions?
* What exactly does "tagging" mean in this context?
* Will the final rules regarding boosting be clearly publicized before bans are enforced? Casual players who do not read the forums daily need a reliable way to see these policies. I checked the rules tab here and saw nothing explaining if the following example is okay.

Example: We are 4 people planning to do Deadmines, WC, and SFK when our last friend is back from holiday. Two of us might be in the mid-20s, one might be in the late 30s, and the last guy might just barely be high enough level to enter the dungeon. Is a group like this okay to play together?

2. War Mode

* When does the choice to disable War Mode become permanent and irreversible?
* Should I warn my friends who are currently away on holiday to log in and disable it before a specific deadline?

Thank you for any clarification!
(Note: English is not my first language, so I used AI to help translate the original post and format my thoughts. I blame our future AI overlords if any of this came out as a complete mess!)

There will not be a scenario where a group of level 18-35 or 40 players are banned for boosting because they wanted to run a dungeon together still, this is targets at those seeking to game the EXP system to skip large sections of content. Warnings will always go out before any disciplinary action takes place.

War mode will always be able to be disabled once. It cannot be re-enabled though after that initial opt out. You either complete the challenge from level one onwards, or you do not complete the warmode challenge.

[Grttadls]

Why do you care about people “skipping content”. The boar challenge is skipping content, no quests, no dungeons only boars. Everyone who’s completed the boar challenge should be banned for skipping content. Didn’t raid this week? You skipped content, banned.

What are you on about?

[Kestrel]

I think you need to listen to the community on this one Kestrel. No one asked for this addition to the rules and the vast majority of the community are expecting you to hold the values of turtlewow and keep the rules as similar as possible to that. This is a major change of rules that most people won't agree with, which is why you are being ratio'd. You will definitely lose server population over implementing this. To say that this is something turtlewow would have done if they had the manpower or means to is insane. They had been moderating for over 7 years.

Sure, and perhaps they did not make it a rule for another reason that I gave. As I said in another response (made after you posted this so no way you saw it first) perhaps the best compromise is to instead allow boosting, but enforce group dropping as an exploit. I would imagine the effect would be similar but does stick to the original TWoW rules, given this is a work around of a mechanic they specifically implemented/changed. Would this be more agreeable or feel like the same change with a different coat of pain? (genuine question)

Hey Kestrel, just wanted to chime in here with some concise perspective on how the conversation has developed so far.

It took way too long to figure out that whole ordeal was not about exterminating RMT off the face of this planet. I understand it is now about exploiting the tag-leave-kill-rejoin mechanic to power level a character, and whether this should be in the game.

My take on this: If you want this exploit gone, you are going to have to fix this server-side. Something like, if a non-grouped character is in an instance, nobody in the entire dungeon gets XP. You'll have to extend this to the open world, where characters *not* in a party, and *not* within +/-5 levels cannot get XP from attacking the same mob.

This is a solution I, and the vast majority of sane individuals, would accept. Because you are right, mob-tagging and killing out of group *is* an exploit of the party system.

Yeah the communication around this rule change has been rough and not well planned out. I do agree we will need to get that fixed on the back end, our initial thoughts was that this is a minor issue/loophole and moderating it would be easier than dedicating engineering time to fixing it when it could be spent elsewhere.

[Kestrel]

I'm not a huge fan of this change. I was an avid booster for my own second or third level 60 characters. As someone who has little time to play, i find it more enjoyable to experience a power fantasy on my main while leveling a utility character for a raid that my guild might be lacking than to traverse through the world through the same path I've traveled multitudes over. I know people think it takes away from the game, but I normally play between 0400-0630 server during the week. It's difficult to find players in major cities during these times let alone queued for dungeons or running around the world so i don't think it takes away from the social aspect of the game whatsoever.

Regardless, I would appreciate some more clarification on what is considered boosting vs "helping". If i run an alt through a bunch of dungeons to get great loot and make the leveling journey faster, does that make it boosting? or does it only apply to open-world dungeon farming? is sitting in DME chatting with a friend while they farm lashers boosting, or is it just hanging out with a friend while they farm some gold?

I would like to see some sort of adjustment to the xp system to help balance out the adjustment to encourage low-level play. Maybe a bonus to the xp of mobs when in a group within a certain level range could encourage more social interaction AND reduce the desire to boost a character.

The edge cases are still being worked out as you'd imagine, but my personal opinion is that a few runs (without group dropping for EXP gain) for loot is fair game and acceptable, DME exp soaking does not feel like boosting in my mind, partially because the EXP/Hour is minimal but also partially because the level gap is not extreme. I am sure some devs feel differently but for the edge case and rule enforcement I make those calls when they are escalated and that would be my decision.

I love this idea and also feel one of the next things we should be re-evaluating is the leveling speed, what we feel it should be long term, and how we best make that happen.

This needs to be clarified before the rule is implemented. "This seems okay to me because the level gap is similar". By your own logic this is "skipping content" (content which people have done many many times mind you), so why is this okay but skipping levels 30-40 is not okay. I do not want a blanket rule that GMs can ban you for because they interpret it different than you.

Unfortunately most game rules are like that. "Insulting or otherwise harassing a player or group (such as a guild)." is pretty vague but we know it when we see it. Is sitting on a player preventing them from trading harassment? They could just move out of the way, it is a normal game mechanic. No GM will be banning people out of the blue as previously stated.

[Kestrel]

1) Remove XP gains from mob tagging
2) code/create a debuff that will land on a player who leaves a party, and have it stick for 2 minutes and prevent XP gains for people who boost in dungs, drop group etc (to outlast the window of getting kicked out after 1 minute), no XP gain if there is a 10+ lvl difference
3) hard cap on how many mobs Paladin's consecrate can hit and it's scaling
4) hard nerf on Mage CoC or other AOE that still lets them 'boost'

The elephant in the room.


Battlegrounds.

You can pretty much get a whole level from 57-58 with approx 3.5 won games of Arathi Basin being played

Do we forecast nerfing BG experience? This will be the next path of least resistance for players and account sellers alike.

Yeah these are some good alternative solutions, like we previously said though we did not anticipate this being the issue it now is. Had we anticipated this we would have simply made a more systemic fix but we thought our developers time was better spend working on new and restoration content, and that this would be a simple "hey just an FYI no more of this clear exploit" type rule change, rather than what it has now become.

This is definitely a failure on our part in terms of communication and messaging. Players actively engaging in PvP and battlegrounds are very different then a player afk in a dungeon while their friend nukes the whole dungeon in one rotation. Not to say that BG experience will never be adjusted, it already has been a bit, but they are different topics in my mind.

[Kestrel]

Please consider that people enjoy playing games in different ways than what the devs “intended”. I leveled 5 alts to 60 and 4 alts to 35 on turtle wow using self boosting. Each time I tried to beat my /played time of the last. I thought of it as speed running leveling which I found to be enjoyable. To all the people saying “if you don’t like leveling 1-60 go play retail”, that is the toxic elitism that turns so many people off from wow. You can enjoy classic wow in many different ways. Leveling is one of the ways you can enjoy it. I found self boosting to be enjoyable. In any game, speed runners always find ways to “break” the game and do it faster. Wow is no different. Let’s follow kestrels logic. Boosting is too fast and is skipping content? Ok no boosting. Spamming battlegrounds too fast for leveling? Fixed, no more xp from battlegrounds. Ok, let’s roll mage/paladin and AoE grind to 60. Nope too fast, if you pull more than 3 mobs, you’re banned. Ok, now mob grinding is the fastest way to 60. Not any more, we just made it so you get 1/2 xp from mob kills and took away rested xp entirely. Where does it end in the name of “skipping content”? There will always be a fastest way to 60 and there will always be people who “skip content” to get to 60 so they can play the content they want to play. Stop enforcing your way of playing the game on others and let people enjoy the game the way they want to. Mind you this is coming from the same person who said they’d banned the auction house if they could, so why should we trust him to implement what the player base actually wants. You’re giving off serious blizzard vibes. “You think you want it, but you don’t”

Reverse this rule or add opt in 2x exp on top of rested once you have a 60 on the same account.

I encourage you to continue to optimize the best and fastest way to get to 60 if that is what brings you joy, I don't see an issue with that. The issue is the exploiting of leaving groups mid pull to funnel exp to a lower level character. I would image you had a similar reaction when turtle made their changes to the grouped EXP with large level gaps?

Following my logic as you say, spamming battlegrounds is not skipping content it is engaging in PvP content. AOE grinding at level is not skipping content it is engaging in existing content in a different way just like any form of dual leveling is (also turtle wow did nerf mage AOE significantly, so by that logic they should never have done that right?), how is mod grinding skipping content in any world? You need to look up what a straw man argument is.

We are not enforcing our way to play the game, we are ensuring an even playing field for those who don't want to exploit group leaving mechanics and sit in a dungeon afk for 12 hours.

[Yotca]

1) Remove XP gains from mob tagging
2) code/create a debuff that will land on a player who leaves a party, and have it stick for 2 minutes and prevent XP gains for people who boost in dungs, drop group etc (to outlast the window of getting kicked out after 1 minute), no XP gain if there is a 10+ lvl difference
3) hard cap on how many mobs Paladin's consecrate can hit and it's scaling
4) hard nerf on Mage CoC or other AOE that still lets them 'boost'

The elephant in the room.


Battlegrounds.

You can pretty much get a whole level from 57-58 with approx 3.5 won games of Arathi Basin being played

Do we forecast nerfing BG experience? This will be the next path of least resistance for players and account sellers alike.

Yeah these are some good alternative solutions, like we previously said though we did not anticipate this being the issue it now is. Had we anticipated this we would have simply made a more systemic fix but we thought our developers time was better spend working on new and restoration content, and that this would be a simple "hey just an FYI no more of this clear exploit" type rule change, rather than what it has now become.

This is definitely a failure on our part in terms of communication and messaging. Players actively engaging in PvP and battlegrounds are very different then a player afk in a dungeon while their friend nukes the whole dungeon in one rotation. Not to say that BG experience will never be adjusted, it already has been a bit, but they are different topics in my mind.

Kestrel, as I said previously a huge part of Twow is people leaving/taking breaks & leveling alts to help the guild if there's a lack of a tank or a healer. Not being able to "boost" these people makes no sense.

Honestly half the reason I bought robot/mail etc is in preparation for this that we've been used it. I fully understand not being able to do it in the "outside" world on the PvP server or even on the HC server. But for the PvE & PvP server in dungeon boosting or outside boosting in non contested zones shouldn't be banned.

All the active players hate RMT and will support the GM/Dev team to the utmost when it comes to that, but boosting for yourself/friends/guildmembers for no compensation shouldn't ever be a problem.

[Beckett]

Lol just ignore all the input, that'll do the server wonders.

"The customer isn't right" should be this pserver's official tagline.