Future patch ideas by turtle dev and personal view

[Bbbb871]

MY POST-FOREVER EXPERIENCE
I've been struggling with whether I should focus on Octo or Forever, but the fking blue elves and the not-so-classic lore just made me realize something. After doing some research, I can say that they are logically not a retcon, but they still feel completely out of place to me. It just made me realize that the company never really respects the established lore.

Blizzard introduced something that was totally not included in the WC3 universe. If they wanted to leave Quel'thalas for a later addition, they could simply have chosen not to make an elf-like race playable in the first place. Instead, they made some blue-skinned elf race and basically said, "Why not both?"

And now with Skyborne, are we getting the WC3 protagonist race, the elf, again? So we're potentially getting three playable elf races out of only around twelve available races. I'm just not buying it.

And with class/race combinations, I like Turtle's way of storytelling much more. I love that they choose a more conservative approach.

For me, the important thing isn't that every race/class combination has to already exist in pre-WoW lore. If you want to introduce something new, that's fine. What matters to me is whether you can actually give it a believable reason within the setting.

The Forever philosophy feels more like "Why can't a race be this class?" while Turtle's is the reverse, "Why can they be this class?"

That's a very different way of looking at the world.

In Forever, we get Gnome Priests. Their racial abilities may be technically unique to Gnomes, but they don't really give the Priest class any meaningful Gnomish cultural or technological flavor. Shouldn't there be something that connects Gnome Priests to their technology, their culture, or whatever they actually believe in?

More importantly, why would a race with almost no established interest in spirituality or gods suddenly devote themselves to the priestly path?

I actually love Turtle's approach where both Gnomes and Goblins don't have access to spiritual classes, and I hope Octo keeps that philosophy.

The same goes for the other combinations Turtle introduced. Dwarf Mages have an explanation involving their attempts to reconnect with Titan knowledge. Dwarf Warlocks have an explanation involving the Gnomes who fled to Ironforge and the cult that eventually grew there.

High Elves don't get Warlocks because they are generally conservative and have a strong moral opposition to Fel magic. But I actually like the fact that this doesn't have to be a permanent thing. After seeing the destruction of Quel'thalas and the horrible state of their homeland with their own eyes, I can see some High Elves taking a much more extreme path and turning to forbidden or darker powers in order to get revenge.

That kind of development makes much more sense to me than simply saying, "High Elves can use Fel magic, so why not let them be Warlocks?"

Their culture can change because of what happened to them, and that change can itself become part of the story. Some of them would become so consumed by revenge that they are willing to use powers that their people previously rejected, in the later Quel'Thalas patch. And eventually, with the reunification of the Thalassian elves, Warlock becomes available.

Undead got Hunters because Dark Rangers are able to train them, and more importantly, many of them were hunters in life. Tauren got Priests because the old Earth Mother religion is being explored.

Whether you agree with every single explanation or not, at least there is an attempt to tell a story about why these combinations exist.

That's what I prefer.

## Undead Paladins

The more established, or at least more controversial, one is Undead Paladins.

With the newly added WC3 campaign, we can argue that they were probably intended to be playable in WoW eventually. But we can still question whether there were actually enough undead who could endure the searing pain brought by the Light to make them a normal playable class.

Before WoW, the only undead Paladin we really saw was Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas. And I think most lore enthusiasts understand that a single exceptional NPC is not necessarily enough to justify making an entire race/class combination available to players.

Another point to consider is that the idea that "the Light only hurts an undead's soul" was introduced after WoW released, if I remember correctly. I think it came from one of the later Chronicle publications, maybe Volume 5.

So if we're following Turtle's development logic, that later explanation could also simply be discarded when we're judging things based on pre-WoW lore.

The question isn't just "Can we find a way to make Undead Paladins work?"

The question is "Was there enough established lore before WoW for Undead Paladins to exist as a normal playable class?"

Those are two very different approaches.

## Wildhammer Shamans

On the other hand, Dwarf Shamans are the real problem for me, specifically Wildhammer Shamans.

The argument seems to be that Wildhammer Dwarves used lightning through their Stormhammers in Warcraft III, so they must have been Shamans.

But that doesn't really work for me.

Using lightning doesn't automatically make someone a Shaman. Warriors can use Thunder Clap, so are they all Shamans?

Before WoW, we didn't really see Wildhammer Dwarves being established as having the same elemental and ancestral traditions associated with Orcish Shamanism.

What we actually knew about them was that they had a strong connection to nature, lived a much more wilderness-oriented lifestyle, rode gryphons, used Stormhammers, and had their own clan traditions.

There is also the Earth Mother connection in the old Warcraft RPG material, although that material is non-canon. Even there, the fact that Wildhammer priests and shamans talked about nature and the Earth Mother does not mean that belief in the Earth Mother automatically equals Shamanism.

Wildhammer Dwarves having a strong relationship with nature does not automatically make them the same kind of Shamans as the Orcs.

Orcish Shamanism has a very specific cultural origin. It is deeply connected to ancestral spirits and elemental beliefs, and its tradition is directly tied to Orcish history.

Riding gryphons and throwing lightning-powered hammers in Warcraft III doesn't prove that they were secretly using totems, communicating with elemental spirits, or following the same spiritual tradition as Orcish Shamans.

Those things were established much more clearly later, especially with Cataclysm.

And that's exactly where I have a problem with using later lore to retroactively justify an earlier race/class combination.

## Why I Prefer Turtle's Approach

I don't need every race/class combination to be absolutely impossible unless the lore explicitly says otherwise.

I just want the developers to ask, "Why can this race be this class?"

If there is a convincing cultural, historical, or narrative answer, then great. If there isn't, maybe that combination simply shouldn't exist yet.

That's what makes the world feel more believable to me.

A Dwarf doesn't become a Mage simply because there is no biological reason preventing it. A Wildhammer doesn't become a Shaman simply because they use lightning. An Undead doesn't become a Paladin just because someone can come up with a post-WoW explanation for why the Light doesn't destroy them.

The limitations themselves tell us something about the cultures of the world.

That's what I think Forever sometimes misses.

Turtle asks, "Why can they be this class?"

Forever often asks, "Why can't they?"

For a modern MMO, I can understand the second philosophy.

But for a project trying to preserve the atmosphere and identity of old Warcraft, I strongly prefer the first.

[Rathotdog]

Turtle asks, "Why can they be this class?"

Forever often asks, "Why can't they?"

For a modern MMO, I can understand the second philosophy.

That's a well put together comment.

I am afraid you gave this a lot more though than the Blizzard developers did.
While they might have SOME idea of what Classic Plus is, and how the Vanilla 2004 design SHOULD be the priority, they certainly didn't set a hard limitations for themselves, and it is clear they are willing to forgo some core design to add something "cool" or innovative.

You can see this in the recent tweet of the developer that went something like "I didn't spend a year learning how to make maps like Vanilla, just for people to call Forever a Retail slop"

And yes, you can clearly see the new Riverglades zone IS very Classic-like. The alliance keep keeps the old models and textures and layout, for example.

But at the same time, you can clearly see that the river banks design was something they didn't want to keep Vanilla. The rivers in that zone are made and designed exactly the same way Retail rivers are. They didn't want to keep the Vanilla design of the river beds, because they clearly feel like that's something obsolete to be rectified and made better.
And sure, the Vanilla rivers look clunky and unnatural. But now the 2 different designs no longer match.

And that's a problem, for a zone that's literally called Riverglades.


The Blue Elves are an obvious smoking gun.
You don't even need to discuss anything further. If the team let such an obvious mismatch through, and also made it a focal point of the whole release, then you can be sure they sure won't care about little details either.

This is evident in the Gnome Priest 'problem'.

When faced with an addition that is somewhat ambiguous to the vanilla design philosophy, you have to use the Occam's razor and honor the precedent.

Yes, you could probably give Priests to Gnomes, it doesn't break any lore -- but at the same time, Gnomes don't NEED to be priests, it isn't supported by any lore.

You have a 50/50 decision, and you should always honor the precedent and keep the old established decision over the new one.

Same with the Blue Elves - Yes, I can tie them to Al'Akir and explain how their island floated from Quel Thalas in a lore-friendly way that doesn't break any established stories -- but I should honor the precedent, and pick an already established elves instead, obviously.




And for Forever, this is just the beginning. They said they have TWELVE years of planned content. So if the lore is already this shaky with the recent additions, how is the game gonna look and feel in 2038?

[Rocksmash]

that Grim batol raid thing at the end of the roadmap has me intrigued.

really wish we got to experience that <3

[Moai]

Same with the Blue Elves - Yes, I can tie them to Al'Akir and explain how their island floated from Quel Thalas in a lore-friendly way that doesn't break any established stories -- but I should honor the precedent, and pick an already established elves instead, obviously.

But why? And What for?

The entire problem with them is not only how far fetched their lore is. Because it makes the high elves redundant when there is Shen'dalar group who did the same thing. Then we have inconsistency - Skywall is elemental plane, so jumping from the island won't make you reach Azeroth.

But apparently Air elementals lifting the island UP makes it go to the Skywall.

Another question would be - why would elves even want that to begin with? Elemental planes don't sound like places any mortal would want to live in.

Second question is - Elves are living for thousand years, in order to change culturally it usually takes generations. So I believe that there shouldn't be much of new generations of bluesky elves, and those original ones shouldn't give up their night elven heritage.

Speaking of which - Their customization options are all over the place. They're not even trying to pretend to be related to night elves, they have all the blood elf customization options. You can be white, pink, even ebony elf, but you cannot be night elven purple

Another thing that needs to spelled out is that these elves are blatant copy of Air Genasi- DnD race. Even down to certain racials, and that their druid forms are literally owlbears - the iconic DnD beast.
And they have audacity to tell us that this is Chris Metzen's OG idea written on a napkin 20 years ago.

Forever was done the moment this blue stinker was announced.

They were caught doing double speak again- they claim they want to focus on Original world and races, and pulling this out of their arse.

No, no no...

And I agree with Bbbb871

Turtle/Octo race class options feel more natural because of different philosophy on how to approach them.

I am of belief that classes should speak about the races, their class choices speak about their society.
And this is why I am also against Forsaken Paladins. And I am of belief that Sir Zillek exception wasn't good enough. And I don't buy this new forsaken campaign, that was created entirely to justify this combination.

Sure forsaken are capable of using light to certain degree, but they're not wired to embrace it. Their entire team is about suffering, about being walking monstrosity that paladins were created to fight. Ash-bringer and exorcism spell were the evidence that class itself was anti-undead.

But my reasoning to object it comes also from thematic reasoning - Paladin is all shining, wearing golden armour, beaming with light and so on, and this just clashes with Forsaken visuals and themes. Surrounded by rot, darkness, corpses, doing cannibalism, while wearing shiny golden armour and casting flashy radiant sparkly spells.

Priest class allows you to use shadow specc, and lean into fantasy of Dark Cleric. Paladin doesn't have such an option.

We could in the same fashion add Darkspear Paladins, retroactively create a WC3 campaign, on how Darkspear colony reaches abandoned temple and create order of Shirvallah, and voila we have Darkspear Paladins, and the visuals for them were already in Hearthstone!



So why not? At least they're not undead.

But I would say the same thing- Paladin just doesn't seem to culturally fit the Darkspears. Unless they'd have some significant cultural change. Paladin is about order, militia, light. And the tribe is literally called DARKspear. Their most significant unit is shadow hunter. The artwork looks cool, but it's just that, a novelty, an experiment, that I don't think would organically land, without transforming this playable faction.

And last but not least, here is the forsaken Intro :

Though the very land is cursed, the zealous humans of the Scarlet Crusade still cling to their scattered holdings, obsessed with eradicating the Undead and retaking their homeland. Convinced that the primitive races of the Horde can help them achieve victory over their enemies, the Forsaken have entered an alliance of convenience. Harboring no true loyalty for their new allies, they will go to any lengths to ensure their dark plans come to fruition. As one of the Forsaken, you must massacre any who pose a threat to the new order. Human, Undead, or otherwise.

And the trailer shows us this


Here is forsaken flashing Horde symbol. So will forsaken get a new intro? That this is not alliance of convenience? These is visible clash in messaging here.

Also there were some good points made against dwarf shamans, I was reluctant about them as I wasn't that sure about Wildhammers, but if previously one ability was all that it took to make them shaman, and - lightning bolt throwing =/= shamanism, then it indeed was also farfetched.

And for Forever, this is just the beginning. They said they have TWELVE years of planned content. So if the lore is already this shaky with the recent additions, how is the game gonna look and feel in 2038?

Be very afraid.



Not only they look out of place, but sound out of place. Both Horde and Alliance should punch them in the face for this sanctimonious, preachy tone.

[Rathotdog]

But why? And What for?

For the higher-ups.
It is clear that while SOME developers might have wanted a real Classic Plus game, the higher ups didn't believe in the idea and made them make it more modern and Retail like (because the numbers show that people love Retail)

Another thing that needs to spelled out is that these elves are blatant copy of Air Genasi- DnD race. Even down to certain racials, and that their druid forms are literally owlbears - the iconic DnD beast.
And they have audacity to tell us that this is Chris Metzen's OG idea written on a napkin 20 years ago.

I stumbled upon this video recently. In the last chapter he talks about an Anime christ metzen co-produced (and voiced, obviously), that looks a LOT like skyborne elves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=favjxqhFeuM

I don't doubt Metzen did create the skyborns, or maybe he had them in his mind for the past 20 years. But I also know Metzen created Cataclysm - the MOST anti-Classic expansion in wow's history. So maybe his seal of approval means fuck all to Classic fans.

Be very afraid.

Holy chungus, my fellow redditors, this is a hecking big yikes y'all. The horde is le racist bigoted chuds?

Yep, modern writers write modern dialogues. At this point I would rather they just used AI to write a proper historical sounding dialogue instead.

[Bbbb871]

Love that people who cares about lore agrees with me, wanna cry. The players of the forever just disgusted me with a post and made me realize maybe this game is not for us...

See this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/wowforever/com ... ss_combos/
Night elves mage/warlock, tauren rogue, skyborne priest wtf they literally have no elune connections in their fxxking floating island. "Imho no race class limits should exist".

[Rathotdog]

Love that people who cares about lore agrees with me, wanna cry. The players of the forever just disgusted me with a post and made me realize maybe this game is not for us...

See this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/wowforever/com ... ss_combos/
Night elves mage/warlock, tauren rogue, skyborne priest wtf they literally have no elune connections in their fxxking floating island. "Imho no race class limits should exist".

That's the r/wowforever subreddit. It's full of non-stop toxicly positive glazers who will ban you for having any negative opinion on the game. It's a peak reddit experience.

Atleast in the old r/classicwow subreddit there's pushback and lot of negative feedback.

Race/Class combos are important to keep limited, that's what makes for the fantasy of both races and classes. In order to keep the RPG element, you actually have to play your roles and stick to their rules.

Imo, Turtle already went a bit too far with the additional class/race combos.
Dwarf and Orc mages are bit too convenient and shoehorned.
Obviously they tied the Dwarves to the Arcane stone, and Dwarves have some history with magic, so the plausibility is there.

Orcs on the other hands are way too farfetched.

But other than that, the Turtle guys stayed very conservative when it came to it.

Hunters for every race is not a bad idea. Warrior and Hunter(Ranger) is the quintessential physical class in all fantasy RPG, that everyone should be able to perform, it has no special ties to any culture or magic systems.

And even then, the Turtle guys went beyond and wrote new story for the Undead Hunters specifically, which is so cool and makes the class combo fit even more in the game. (The trainers have a line of "We no longer adapt to nature, the nature adapts to us now", which fits well with the Forsaken culture)

Another well addition is the Tauren Priest. Tauren has had the least class options, so it's nice way to expands their options, while still leaving the race very limited with only 5 options.


If you add too many options for every race, not only does the race lose it's unique identity, so does each class.
And then you get to a point, like Retail, where each race can be almost any class except maybe one, and at point why bother restricting anything, let's homogenize all of them, let people pick whatever they want.

That's when one major aesthetical aspect of a game dies, the game becomes objectively uglier.

[Moai]

Imo, Turtle already went a bit too far with the additional class/race combos.
Dwarf and Orc mages are bit too convenient and shoehorned.
Obviously they tied the Dwarves to the Arcane stone, and Dwarves have some history with magic, so the plausibility is there.

Orcs on the other hands are way too farfetched.

But other than that, the Turtle guys stayed very conservative when it came to it.

Yes, I agree that Dwarf and Orc mages feel off. On the other hand we saw Orc mages in Blackrock instances casting Arcane missiles.

And well someone might say why orcs are out of place and trolls aren't. But I always assumed that it's through Zandalari heritage and passed knowledge on the scrolls and tablets. Still, I would appreciate quests that would delve deeper into this thing. There was a bit early in the game regarding Zalazane, that proved that trolls understand leylines and can create items to manipulate them. But I believe there should be more. I'm such a sucker for little details like that. And I wanted for Darkspears to have one new big questing hub, that could also tackle on this subject, add Rokhan and give them something to do, and help get reputation with the faction faster.
But I digress.

When it comes to dwarves, I always took that the Dark Irons were the sorcerers and warlocks of the bunch. But Dark Irons aren't integrated to the Alliance in Vanilla. I would be fine with dwarf mage/lock if they had Dark Iron skin.

Another well addition is the Tauren Priest. Tauren has had the least class options, so it's nice way to expands their options, while still leaving the race very limited with only 5 options.

I was really impressed with what they did with Tauren Priests. Their lore expanding to worship Lo'sho , and acknowledgement that Azeroth has two moons, not just one. So much care was put into it, it elevated their spiritualism, and made it so organic and so well integrated. When you look at Blizzard's treatment which essentially boiled down to short description "They pray to An'she, they're seers and shiet" you realise how much Blizzard cared.

And I want for those choices to matter. To have their flavour, their own unique take on the class.

If you add too many options for every race, not only does the race lose it's unique identity, so does each class.
And then you get to a point, like Retail, where each race can be almost any class except maybe one, and at point why bother restricting anything, let's homogenize all of them, let people pick whatever they want.

That's when one major aesthetical aspect of a game dies, the game becomes objectively uglier.

So elves could keep exclusive classes, and be majority. Because indeed if almost all the classes are open for the grabs, then why draw the line at Demon hunter? Let me be pandaren DH with bouncing belly.
Why care at this point.


But funny enough this sentiment "just give people access to every class, why such a restrictions?" is not limited to classes only, because it's almost always in company with "just remove the faction divide all together! Split on Horde and Alliance is Stupid!"

And I think Blizzard agrees with that considering that for few expansions in row they refuse to write separate questing experience for Horde and Alliance. Now everyone gets exact same story no matter which side they play.

[Vergiel]

Really love the plans with Kael'thas. Thought he was done very dirty in TBC and would love to see him as the elf racial leader.