2026-09-29

[Kestrel]

I could've sworn we already had xfaction queues for BGs already. I leveled my main 50 to 60 via AB spam before it got nerfed and I'm positiive I was swaping factions every few queues.

We did have cross faction BG's, but previously there were issues when grouping cross faction then trying to queue up together.

[Kestrel]

When will there be a simple way to donate? Chinese Mainland can't open the Bitcoin QR code

Very SOONtm

[Berdal]

We're back boys!

You're doing gods work guys! TYVM

2 inquiries:
- wasn't the War Mode boost 15%? Has it been increased to 20%?
- can (most) quests in general be startable from 1-2 levels earlier than they are to be eligible for [Trial of Heroism]? Most quests are only available when they're already yellow difficulty...

EDIT: scratch that. I only now realized (on the re-read) that it's not mentioning XP-gain, but honor.

[Duraluminium]

Doesn't this rule out the possibility of creating cross-realm battlegrounds in the future? What about maintaining a cross-faction queue and a cross-realm queue with a ban on cross-faction play on a PvP server?

This change does not affect that decision at all one way or another as the situation remains the same. If we do enable cross realm battlegrounds then we will have to either remove cross faction battlegrounds from the PvE realm, or allow it for the PvP realm.

More information will come out SOONtm in regards to what we will be doing with that.

The PVP server is dying. Most players only login for PVE raids, bgs are not popping (there are times when daily BG is AB or WSG and there are 0 bgs going in the evening for more than an hour). Horde stopped defending Orgri even vs small 20-man raids..
The server needs changes asap

[Swyp]

Doesn't this rule out the possibility of creating cross-realm battlegrounds in the future? What about maintaining a cross-faction queue and a cross-realm queue with a ban on cross-faction play on a PvP server?

This change does not affect that decision at all one way or another as the situation remains the same. If we do enable cross realm battlegrounds then we will have to either remove cross faction battlegrounds from the PvE realm, or allow it for the PvP realm.

More information will come out SOONtm in regards to what we will be doing with that.

The PVP server is dying. Most players only login for PVE raids, bgs are not popping (there are times when daily BG is AB or WSG and there are 0 bgs going in the evening for more than an hour). Horde stopped defending Orgri even vs small 20-man raids..
The server needs changes asap

Agree, action needs to be taken asap. Boost leveling XP, or do a leveling event. Cross server dungeon queue, cross server pvp queue.

[V0rt1ces]

Some personal braindump about cross faction BG queueing while waiting for the server reset :

This solution would not be on the table if it were not clearly solving some problem that desperately needed addressing. I know long BG queues can be a pain. If people's average wait time is the same or longer than their average play time for a bg, then there is something seriously wrong. Furthermore, many pvp-ers just want to farm their honour/rep with not a care in the world if they are 'team red' or 'team blue'. (not the new players though..)

However, we have to be careful not to make the same mistake that blizzard has made repeatedly - sacrificing core experiences that only an MMORPG can deliver, for 'a quick and dirty fix' to some quality of life issue. Some quick and dirty fixes are certainly worth implementing, and one good example is the group finder addon, which didnt break the server's immersion nearly as much as some thought it would. One reason why group finder on twow/octo doesnt feel as disconnecting as it does on retail is because there are many different ways the player can experience an MMO vibe, that a simple group finder feature won't be enough to break that much. Group finder sacrificed an essentially insignificant feature of the MMO experience for the sake of convenience and efficiency. A good trade imo.

Back to X-faction BG's, they will no doubt make this server more playable for a significant number of players, otherwise it would not have been implemented in turtle and would not be attempted to be repeated here. But at what cost? Is it sacrificing something meaningless or significant?

Its not as easy to pin down all the effects, but at the very least, we can confidently say from the surface that two core aspects have been altered:
- lore/immersion is sacrificed - now horde shamans can be seen fighting for the cause of the night elf sentinels to stop their horde cousins from farming resources. Kevin Jordan the goat, who was key in class design and who also introduced PVP into the game, would never consider this solution and neither should we.
- the pvp meta has now changed with shammy/pally being allowed to be on both teams and the assymmetry is reduced (more on that below). New class combos. Meta changes can be exciting, but now we have lost fundamental asymmetry and over time all teams will lean towards the same combination of classes and the games will become more balanced, but more boring (more on this below)

What has been gained with the implementation of this solution is that now any player can PVP in a BG with any other player. This means that BG's are turning more into a kind of arcade experience you can do with any of your friends. And arcades have short waiting times too.

I see the appeal but its still a forced band aid solution that should be seen as temporary only imo.

There have to be other ways to incentivize players to balance factions and queue for BG's without screwing up something else that is integral to the whole plot of the game. Imaginative solutions is the name of the game for making Classic + work, so lets only settle for less in the short run.

Making PVP work has never been easy for any mmo franchise, but we can find a better way

Addressing (potential) PVP problems (and explanation or a hypothetical example of the principle im describing):
- unbalanced factions in numbers (too many gnomes, not enough taurens)
- unbalanced factions in power (BG base locations, access to resources and choke points are different for each faction; paladin and shaman have differing strengths and weaknesses)
- unbalanced numbers for classes (too many druids, not enough warriors)
- unbalanced class power spikes (shaman have ghost wolf at lvl 20, paladins have free mount at lvl 40)
- wpvp: gankers (not really a game design problem, but they are when they become griefers)
- wpvp: griefers/campers (the problem is not the griefer themselves, but the lack of ways to deal with griefers effectively from other players; the lack of incentive for lazy lvl 60 geared players to bother to go to stv to go pacify the problem)
- wpvp: ppl who dont "reshpecc the 1v1, bro" (jokes.. but srsly... if two ppl are fighting and it looks relatively even, for the love of god let them have fun, put your sword away, sit down and watch. then rez your buddy who blames you for him losing and let the other guy lick his wounds... or kill him after if you must avenge your fallen ally) (if the fight outcome is looking extremely uneven, then its okay to make it a 2v1, because each player has a fighting chance of winning)

Some of these problems can be addressed separately, some cannot be addressed at all. Some solutions can fix multiple problems at once. PVP is such a sensitive system to tinker that has hard downstream effects to predict. However sticking to game design principles can help map out the way.

Some half-baked thoughts on pvp game design:

1. Balance and symmetry are essential but overhyped. Icefrog knows better than anyone: "if everything is overpowered, nothing is overpowered." Asymmetry is a good thing. Even in a game like chess, the strategies inherent to each side you play are deteremined by which side goes first, an inherent asymmetry. We dont want balance, we want a thriving web. The Rock Paper Scissors model. In wow terms, shamans stay on horde, paladins stay on alliance. And both should be good against some classes and bad against others. The better one class counters another class, the better the health of the web. Scissors does not have "a good chance" to beat paper; Scissors beats paper every single time. Wow does not have to be that extreme in its design for counter matchups, in fact, skilled pvp players will often tell you their best kills are when they beat a class that typically counters them. By using the right planning, preparations or initiation, they managed to get the upper hand. Allowing players to sometimes beat scissors with paper if they do the extra things that the other player is neglecting is a good thing and should be encouraged. There is a sweet spot somewhere between hard countering and wiggle room for outplaying hard counters.
2. BG timers are a problem partly because WPVP is dead. How to incentivize WPVP that does not risk dishonourable kills to those farming honor - but also does not cause griefing. Perhaps give civilians a faster respwn timer, and a smaller dishonour penalty, that it does not grief the players who want to turn in a quest and run away, while also giving honour farmers more control. Or something else, but its possible to revive city raids here, which is some of the most fun this game has to offer.
3. Wpvp gankers are fine having. If a lvl 60 dwarf paladin wants to purge every undead rogue he comes across, he has the gods blessings and mine. Wpvp GRIEFING is what we must address. Perhaps make a global 'bounty' on those who kill anyone 20 levels below them REPEATEDLY, that would give a notification to opposing faction players who have warmode on a notification when the griefer player has entered a low level zone, or when they are within n units of a low level fp. The bounty could be money, bonus honour. The griefer should also be given the notification that his presence has been informed to powerful players who may want to come hunt him down, so he has the option of leaving or staying. (maybe not a practical solution, there are loopholes that players can easily find, but we still have to think in this direction of finding ways that the community polices itself when it comes to griefing)
4. A BG where everyone can group with whoever they want and still enjoy the thrill of pvp together would be great! but then we need a new BG, one that is built on a story of hiring mercernaries from all races. Maybe the endless war between two opposing centaur clans in desolace could be the lore behind this. A battleground where anyone can group with anyone is still doable this way and it does not break game immersion rules. Not to downplay the work this would take, of course.

You can be the first to make Cross faction collab work while simultaneously having a thriving PVP scene. And even if you just hit the moon while shooting for the stars, it's a good result.

I would lastly like to end on a positive note: its amazing what the team at Octo has been able to do. The love for the game is real, the evolving game in design and the ingenuity behind decisions is hard to miss. Thank you for everything you are doing to keep the dream of an authentic Classic+ experience alive <3

Peace (well no, actually this is PVP right?)


P.S. I'm not a game designer, just a nerd. There's much that I haven't considered that you surely have. These are just some thoughts i thought were worth rippling out there. I have no doubt you are doing the best with the information and experience that you have, which is logarithmically greater than mine lol.
P.P.S. Hunters Track Critters, when?

[Vjcrdf11434]

They just need to enable character transfers from PvE to PvP servers......

[Obsideus]

Making PVP work has never been easy for any mmo franchise, but we can find a better way

DAoC didn't have this problem - just turns out more people enjoy PvE.

[Silversnake1031]

can we pls get a increase to the amount produced by lvl 55 food and water to 20 from 10 per cast or reduce the mana cost of those two spells

[Elethea]

• re-size box added to scholo to patch growth elixir exploit
• Fixed issue where warlocks pets would not re-summon when they die before the warlock in a battleground
• Allowed mix faction queueing for battlegrounds
• Those on the Traveling Craftmaster challenge can now wear tabards
• Garr's Firesworn now scale evenly with raid size
• War mode now stays on when you hit level 60 (until dissabled), the 20% honor gain is replaced with a 20% boost to BG reputation gain once you reach level 60
• Fixed bug preventing shaman physical abilities from procing Earthen Bulwark
• Frostmane Hollow quests are now shareable
• Adjusted some respawn timers in Northwind and Lpidis Isle
• Added Grim Totem skin back to the shop
• Networking updates

This restart may require up to 30 minutes of downtime.

"War mode now stays on when you hit level 60 (until dissabled), the 20% honor gain is replaced with a 20% boost to BG reputation gain once you reach level 60". I assume we can retoggle war mode or have to level war-mode 1-60 again.

-t. recently 60 via war mode.

edit: I suspect it is a lot of hassle to have a check who completed warmode till 60 compared to just removing the automatic turn off for fresh 60's, alas I want hear your dev opinion on it.