OctoWow - Forums

Intro:
Project Epoch is the second most extensive and most flavorful version of fanmade Classic Plus, next to Turtle’s Mysteries of Azeroth.
One of my wishes is to see the custom zones of Epoch and Turtle combined into a single world of the best ideas made by the community.

From a moral standpoint, I understand that taking from other mod creators is not a good look. But Project Epoch has already been abandoned twice. Once by the original developers, second by the Ascencion team, who bought it from them.
Right now, there is a server running the version in an attempt to restore and preserve the content, called Epoch Reborn. It is also not run by any of the original developers.
And since Octowow is already running an un-ethically sourced version of the game, it might not be as big of a deal to ‘borrow’ some more from a different abandoned project.


New corners of Azeroth:
Here are the custom additions to the world of Azeroth, and how well they would fit into the Mysteries of Azeroth version.

Unfortunately, I lost all my Epoch screenshots, so any pictures of the subzones will have to come from a map editor. It is not an accurate representation of how these look ingame.

Eastern Kingdoms


Wetlands - Upper Marshes

In the hills above Menethil harbor, the Ironforge dwarves battle Dragonmaw orc encroaching onto their settlements from within the occupied Grim Batol tunnels. Features a lived in dwarven town to the west, an orc encampment at the gates of one of Grim Batol’s entrances above the Dun Algaz tunnels, and a contested area in the middle, where dwarves are fighting off the orcish invaders.
The highlight of this subzone is the view of the fortress you see from the Dun Algaz tunnels.

https://i.imgur.com/aU2I8Fg.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/DjW1dHc.png

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 7/10 - Turtle has already developed this area with their own custom content. And I am gonna be brutally honest here, the Hawk’s Vigil together with the Dun Argath dwarven town are probably the worst custom content addition in Mysteries of Azeroth.
Hawk’s Vigil is inexplicably using the Elwynn Forest tileset, featuring a Stormwind or perhaps a Loarderon fortress deep in dwarven territory, with no explanation of why a human base would even be here. Not to mention there are no quests, apart from the one really awkward questline to kill the old warlock. The zone is there just for the roleplayers, I presume. The Dwarven side of this subzone is even worse. It features no quests, and all the NPCs are completely pointless, with nonsensical dialogue options.
The Epoch version takes full advantage of the unused terrain, making the area at least twice as big as MoA’s version, and it fits much better into the overall story and setting of the Wetlands.
The expansion of Dragonmaw Orcs in this area would make them fit a lot better into the overall story of the Grim Reaches and Dragonmaw Retreat.



Badlands - Springsocket

Southeast, on the canyon tops, lays an goblin town of Springsocket, offering a couple more quests to this barren zone, and a flightpath for the Alliance.

https://i.imgur.com/hYfCu4l.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 1/10 - It could, but MoA has already developed Badlands in multiple creative ways. The area where Springsocket resides, has already been used for the blue dragon quest area with the oasis. Which I think is one of the coolest custom areas of MoA.
A whole goblin town probably has more longevity, and replayability than the 1 or 2 quests that MoA uses the area for, but I don't think the town is needed. There are other subzones in Badlands that already give enough content to the zone.



Arathi Highlands - The Blazing Hills

Eastern hills feature a mountainous region filled with elementals and Witherbark trolls. The zone opens all the way to the coast, connecting to the old forgotten dwarven farmhouse.

https://i.imgur.com/weDyxzt.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/z6P743L.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 3/10 - I personally do not like this addition, it doesn’t look and feel very Vanilla. But it’s not an inherently bad addition.



Burning Steppes - Ashfall Post

On the road towards Blackrock Mountain, adventurers can stop at the Thorium Brotherhood controlled Dark Iron tavern. Serving as a neutral hub for the zone.

https://i.imgur.com/MtqVveW.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 4/10 - It’s a more light hearted addition to the more overall harsh zone of Burning Steppes. MoA already expanded this zone with the new horde hub. The tavern looks good enough, and the location and story of it feels natural enough. The quests here feature a few Shadowforge detractors, Dark Irons who are fighting against the Blackrock Mountain. MoA already has a small hub of similarly charged Dark Iron dwarves. They could take advantage of this guarded tavern, rather than stand outside the Redridge gates in the open.



Dun Morogh - Gnome starting zone

Nestled in the western hills of Dun Morogh, the Gnomes emerge from a Gnomeregan emergency exit.
This zone features a beautifully made custom gnome underground area, full with Fallout style vault doors. It also features an unused Alpha Vanilla troll cave as its introductory mini dungeon.
And similarly to the Coldridge Valley, the exit from this subzone is through a cave full of hostile enemies. After leaving the starting area, you find yourself connecting to the south road leading to Kharanos.

https://i.imgur.com/C7xVGzC.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/KcafJfi.png
https://i.imgur.com/qhummP2.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/4ju6B2n.png

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 10/10 - It pains me to say, but even the gnomes deserve nice things sometimes. Each race having it’s distinct starting area would be really great for the game. The setting of this zone might clash slightly with the redesigned Gnomeregan area in MoA.



Elwynn Forest - Goldshire

Epoch has a completely redesigned the town of Goldshire, ripping out the original floor plan adding new buildings, making the place bigger and completly unrecognizable.

https://i.imgur.com/WRx5nov.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/Tge6Wt8.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 0/10 - No, Classic Plus isn't about removing content, it's about adding new content. This is by far the worst Epoch content added. And it doesn’t even look that good.



Duskwood - Manor Mistmantle

The simple house Stalvan was living in, was turned into the large mansion model, making the supposed rich family’s home look more appropriate to the story.

https://i.imgur.com/rilRvqZ.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 10/10 - This one is just a simple building swap, and it enhances the already wonderful Stalvan questline. Bonus points, Blizzard actually made this same change in Forever.



Westfall - Deadmines

Team Epoch has revamped 2 dungeons completely from ground up. Deadmines still has the same general layout (mines, then ogre room, then lumber yard etc), but each of the rooms and tunnels connecting them look completely different.

https://i.imgur.com/c86VkBQ.png
https://i.imgur.com/avbZ9k4.png

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 0/10 - Same reasoning as with Goldshire. The Deadmines revamp looks considerably worse than the original, not to mention MoA already expanded original Deadmines in a good way.
The only part that is superior to the original version is the Ship. It looks so good, and the dungeon path now leads through the ship's rooms. That’s definitely an improvement, but it’s not worth removing the original parts of the dungeon for.



Blasted Lands - Coast and Felstone Fortress

South of Nethergarde Keep, the coastline of Blasted Lands opens up to the sea. On the north coast is a small horde expedition camp, and on the south coast is a massive complex occupied by demon cultists known as the Felstone Fortress. The fortress serves as a high lvl outdoor elite area, similar to the MoA’s Tyrandas Isle on the Moonwhisper Coast, both in it's scope and difficulty.
Completing the fortress, is a dock with a docked goblin mercenary ship full of neutral goblins, trading with the antagonistic cultists.

https://i.imgur.com/VdmnA9o.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/wIrI4S4.png

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 4/10 - I don't have strong feelings about the Fortress. It does give the zone a new purpose, but it's so big it hogs all the attention in this small zone. The coastline on the other hand, is a phenomenal addition, it's one of the few changes they got right back in Cataclysm.
The horde camp with a flightpath is not needed in the zone.
Copying just the coastline without the fortress involves additional map sculpting, so it might not be worth separating the two. But if it was up to me, I would add just the coastline, it makes the zone look so much better.



STV - Glittermurk mines

In the middle Stranglethorn Vale, near the crystal mines, the Venture Co goblins opened a new mining operation.
The outdoor area is just a small valley with a mine entrance, while the accompanying dungeon leads you down windings mining shafts, all the way to the underground water reservoir.
Enemies involve Venture Co in the upper part and Nagas and their Sea Giant lord in the lower section of the mines.

https://i.imgur.com/IWaoirV.png
https://i.imgur.com/V3eJhM6.png
https://i.imgur.com/ztKk90m.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 5/10 - If we want another 35-45 leveling dungeon, then it's a solid choice. It's short, it doesn't stand out, and it's a solid 5/10 dungeon experience. It looks very basic, most of the ambience is just mineshafts and bare caves. But it fits the Vanilla artstyle very well.
The only part I don't believe fits MoA is the secret kraken boss.



Western Plaguelands - Andorhal

Epoch got inspired by the Alpha version of Andorhal, and erected giant half destroyed city walls around the town. It's just a small graphical update, but it makes the town feel as mighty as it deserves.

https://i.imgur.com/OjNF2Oh.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/BCpxvLZ.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 9/10 - It might be harder to implement then by simply just copying chunks, tho.



Tol Barad

The only custom zone Epoch added, an island south of Southshore. Formerly a prison of the Kul Tiras nation, it is now abandoned and overtaken by pirates.

https://i.imgur.com/O0wz7CU.png
https://i.imgur.com/OHzsbTK.png

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 2/10 - The whole zone is serving as an entrance to the Baradin Hold endgame dungeon. It doesn't look particularly great, but it fits the aesthetic of Vanilla. It could somehow fit MoA and its prevalence of Kul Tiras quests. Even without adding the dungeon, the zone could work as some kind of hub for more stories with this faction.
I never ran the BH dungeon, so I don't know how well it fits into MoA.



Kalimdor


Winterspring - Teles’aran

Night Elven ruins in the northeast part of Winterspring. A sizable compound occupied by neutral Highborne spirits and hostile Satyrs and their corrupted treant defenders. The last quest leads you to an underground night elven palace, that uses the Tyrande’s room model from Darnassus, which has a cozy winter cave atmosphere.

Unfortunately, the map I have is corrupted and I can’t view this location.

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 6/10 - Nice self-contained area that offers something new to the scarcely filled Winterspring. It also looks really good. Could be used for a few leveling quests, or as an end game Elite spot.



Winterspring - Star’s Rest

Jutting from the eastern cliffs of Winterspring, is an ancient dragon graveyard overrun with magical ogres.

https://i.imgur.com/o4AnBTK.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/BwL09PN.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 0/10 - It barely even fits into Epoch. This subzone was supposed to be used later in an unreleased legendary questline.
It looks too special, and barely fits the story and visuals of the zone.


Azshara - Blackmaw Village

On the northern coast sits an island inhabited by friendly furbolgs.

https://i.imgur.com/Dpd7t0e.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/u0r3P7A.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 1/10 - MoA has already put a custom island in this location, the Bloodfist Isle. The Blackmaw Island looks slightly better, and it has a natural beach. The village itself looks out of place, as it is using Wotlk models, which are too high fidelity to fit the Vanilla aesthetic of MoA. There are already enough friendly furbolgs in MoA’s version of Azshara.



Azshara - Valormok

The small Horde outpost of Valormok got a full scale revamp, turning it into the northern frontier of Thrall’s new horde expansion. It makes only sense that a zone so close to the capital city would feature a large scale base. Especially when there’s an equally as large base just next zone in eastern Ashenvale.

https://i.imgur.com/pQFFCMW.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/6RQQsL5.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/iL6fRnn.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 10/10 - I believe this addition doesn’t actually change the functionality of the zone at all. It could serve just as little as an artificial aesthetic change, unless you want to fill the town with new questgivers.
And I have to be honest here - this is my favorite zone addition in Epoch, it just feels right. The Original Valormok is barely just 2 tents, it makes no sense why Horde wouldn’t have a large base in this location. And it looks so naturally good, straight up like a Warcraft 3 orc base.



Azshara - Wobble Hollow

Of the southern coast of Azshara, hugging the cliffs, is a gnomish expedition town. Acting as an alliance hub for the zone.

https://i.imgur.com/U8VvyqE.png

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 0/10 - I believe Epoch got inspired by MoA on this one, because there is already a gnomish town in this exact spot in MoA. The Epoch version is just a little bigger.



Mulgore - Mountain pass to Desolace

During the Epoch’s expanded Demon Seed questline, you are tasked by Magatha Grimtotem to clear the pass connecting Mulgore to Desolace from marauding Centaurs. This serves both as a nice small quest hub, but especially as a new, convenient and especially lore-friendly way to connect Desolace with the broader Kalimdor. Giving Horde players an additional, easier way to reach this zone.

https://i.imgur.com/b28NSUS.png
https://i.imgur.com/BUwtG2B.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/CmWxOD6.png

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 5/10 - Mysteries of Azeroth already put one zone connecting pass in Mulgore, which is a welcomed addition, I believe this one could work just as well.



Durotar - Darkspear Isles

Darkspear Isles, located north of Echo Isles, serves as the starting zone for Darkspear Trolls. The players get briefly introduced to the plight of the Darkspears, face invading Naga and Murlocs, and discover the beginning of dark voodoo conspiracy that leads them directly to Sen’Jin Village at lvl 5, to tackle the Zalazane problem further.

https://i.imgur.com/udujD05.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/dgBNzB3.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/NhJEgE4.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 10/10 - Trolls deserve their own separate starting zone, and this one ties nicely to the broader Durotar storyline. Similar to the gnomes, this one is a no-brainer. The island looks really great too, the only downside is the starting village is extremely barebones. The trolls here don’t even have a single building, just tents and stone ruins.



Durotar - Orgrimmar

A new district is opened up in Orgrimmar, the Valley of Wind. Accessible from the Drag, on the eastern side of the city, overlooking the sea from the red Durotar cliffs, is a new district, primarily used for housing 2 zeppelin towers, replacing the towers outside the city gates.

https://i.imgur.com/EMOCucx.png
https://i.imgur.com/v11Cefd.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/ZiHz8UI.png
https://i.imgur.com/LoyHUjc.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 9/10 - This addition to Orgrimmar fits so seamlessly, it is by far my most favorite thing the Epoch 3D artist made. Adding this subzone would put the transport routes inside the city, the same way Stormwind Harbor is. Having a separate district designed solely for transport also mirrors Stormwind Harbor.
In Epoch, this district is largely empty, except for the 2 zeppelin towers. (There was the transmog NPC, the new PvP vendors and 1 npc you are sent to talk to for a quest, and that’s it) So Octo devs would probably have to think of ways to populate this district with meaningful NPCs and facilities. It would also invalidate the 2 towers outside of the city.
This addition is a part of the Orgrimmar WMO, meaning it is quite easy to just rip from the Epoch gamefiles.



Durotar - Razor Hill

Similarly to Goldshire, Epoch also revamped the town of Razor Hill. Fortunately on this one, they somewhat kept the original floor plan, and just extended the town slightly by adding a few buildings (one of them is a beastiary from War3 (I know MoA has one as well in the Grim Reaches) ), running a small creek through the town and adding a shamanistic cave.

https://i.imgur.com/1infb3N.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/2OoPRse.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 0,5/10 - It looks better than the Goldshire redesign. It might actually look better than the original Razor Hill, but I don't think we need to revamp the original locations, they are fine as they are.



Stonetalon Mountains - Stonetalon Caverns

Epoch artists reimagined this War3 dungeon into WoW. Unfortunately, the dungeon wasn't finished, and it is missing from the server files. I am only mentioning this because I really love the idea of a Stonetalon Caverns dungeon.

https://i.imgur.com/Y5p6UXD.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 0/10 - The dungeon doesn’t exist, and MoA has already expanded the zone extensively.



Desolace - Squigglecord Outpost

High in the mountains north of Maraudon, the gnomes and night elves joined forces in a new alliance quest hub.

https://i.imgur.com/KeAYG1v.jpeg

Does it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 0/10 - I don’t think Alliance needs another outpost in this zone. And it looks really bad. Can you tell the Epoch devs really really liked gnomes? There are a lot of gnomish additions in this version.



Barrens - Wailing Caverns

Similar to Deadmines, WC is completely rebuilt from scratch.

https://i.imgur.com/ymsSP9r.png
https://i.imgur.com/rlFIVDB.png
https://i.imgur.com/kNouI18.png

Would it fit Mysteries of Azeroth? - 0/10 - No, even if the revamp looks good enough, it's completely unnecessary. Not to mention MoA already has a really good expansion onto WC.



Barrens - Fort Airheart

High above in the mountains of southern Barrens, bordering Dustwallow Marsh, is the Kul Tiran base of Fort Airheart. Serving only as a lvl 40 Elite hub for some Horde quests down in Brackenwall Village.

https://i.imgur.com/ZcGgJGl.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 2/10 - I think it would fit, but I don’t think it’s needed. Looks good enough and fits the zone.



Tanaris - Steamwheedle port

The Steamwheedle port has been greatly expanded into a proper town, rivaling Gadgetzan in its size. Water pumps and pipes are everywhere in the town, showing off the water-wealth the goblins of this port have in this harsh desert.

https://i.imgur.com/XtGs76T.png
https://i.imgur.com/vne6pRZ.png
https://i.imgur.com/PDQIEoD.png

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 7/10 - I know Turtle has made some small additions to this town, but it really doesn’t live up to how good the Epoch’s version looks.



Tanaris - Anje Watha

Horde forward facing military outpost nestled in the hills of southern Tanaris. It makes for the southernmost frontier of Thrall’s expansion. Provides easier access to the Land’s End beach for Horde.

https://i.imgur.com/n6xjRBx.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/Wr6xiYX.jpeg

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 1/10 - I don’t believe Horde needs another outpost in Tanaris, and having a large base this far south in this inhospitable part of Kalimdor does not make sense from a story perspective.



Tanaris - Uldum

The Epoch devs planned on adding Uldum as a new raid instance. It was never finished, and all we have in the gamefiles is this custom built gate and the first room.

https://i.imgur.com/SWweUT5.png
https://i.imgur.com/ZqLSU9b.png

Would it fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? - 0/10 - It’s not finished. The gate could be used just for a new look of it, I guess. I really like the model.





I have intentionally skipped some minor additions, like a single new cave/mine in a zone, which there are plenty of in Epoch.
Let me know if I skipped something major that would have fit into MoA well.

I believe adding these already made maps could serve as the ideal start for adding new custom content to Octo.

I understand finding new 3D artists and map makers willing to work on a project like Octo is not gonna be easy, and it will take a long time before we see some new content added to this server, so why not start slow with these? To show the players that Octo is being serious about expanding the Mysteries of Azeroth version of WoW, in a proper Classic Plus style it deserves.

Many Octo players probably already know and like these Epoch locations, but I bet that most of them don't, and will be pleasantly surprised when they see them added to the game.

I recently learned it is not difficult at all to add the map chunks from Epoch to the Turtle map, so all that remains to do is to properly script the NPCs and quests in these zones. Which is something the Octo team has already proven to be excelent at, with their restoration of the 1.18.1 patch.

What do you guys think? Do these Epoch zones fit into Mysteries of Azeroth? Would you like to see them added?

You put a lot of effort into this so I'll do the same.

Wetlands - Upper Marshes

I appreciate a lot about Hawk's Vigil. I wouldn't be torn up to see it replaced. Especially the approach up the cliff along the coast is pretty shoddy all things considered. It would be interesting to have access to the depths of the actual mountains of Dun Morogh through tunnels and the like as a location for a future dungeon/zone set in Old Ironforge and the Wetlands might be a good way to place a portal that wouldn't require running past Alliance-flagged guards. There's potential for a lot here. Maybe just do up the Dwarven side and leave the Vigil as a refuge for people who fled Lordaeron for a new life? Idk. Something is lost either way.


Badlands - Springsocket

One of the interesting aspects of the Badlands is they are difficult to get to. Oddly enough more so for the Alliance than the Horde given the Zeppelin tower but the Badlands are intended to be isolated. Adding too many friendly NPCs runs the risk of harming that vibe. There is room to the east of the badlands for expansions out seaward and something out that way with a more Warcraft 2 Goblins feel would fit nicer I think.


Arathi Highlands - The Blazing Hills

This doesn't seem to add much and is very barren looking. I like the watery area and I think the cliffs being opened up is cool but part of the appeal of Hammerfall and the Witherbark village is them being nestled in cliffside nooks and this cuts away at that vibe by being far too open.


Burning Steppes - Ashfall Post

The Dark Irons already have Searing Gorge. Burning Steppes is supposed to be for the Dark Horde and the Black Dragonflight. I don't think it needs more Dark Irons, though I do like the tavern idea and wouldn't mind seeing something such the like in Gorge, perhaps just an expansion to Thorium Point. There is a danger in adding too many safe places and hubs to a zone in that it makes it too safe for PvP and too comfortable for questing.


Dun Morogh - Gnome starting zone

This might be a hot take but I don't think the Gnomes need their own starting zone. Their close relationship with Dwarves, the desolation of their civilisation, and their reliance upon their allies in this tough time all benefit tonally from beginning your journey amongst the Dwarves. Moreover, Gnomes already have a lot of custom content in Dun Morogh which better conveys their situation imo. I would rather extra space be used for questing for everyone than to add a location which is already mechanically and narratively served at different but close locations.


Elwynn Forest - Goldshire

Agreed, a change for a change's sake is what ruined WoW to begin with. Plus I'm pretty sure I saw Epoch used the alpha models which are kinda ass ugly and weirdly proportioned.


Duskwood - Manor Mistmantle

It's not all that necessary a change but nor is it detrimental. I'm ambivalent to it.


Westfall - Deadmines

I think climbing the scaffolding of the ship has it's own appeal but I wouldn't mind some optional rooms inside the juggernaut either. That said I don't think Deadmines is exactly crying out for new content after the revamp. A good idea but maybe pinned for later.


Blasted Lands - Coast and Felstone Fortress

Again with more coastline opening in EK which is relatively needed for the vibes I think. I dislike the fortress also as the point of Blasted Lands is being the remnants of demons and a place the Alliance isn't really paying attention to anymore so a large, fortified hostile presence would shift the tone of things a lot. If anything it would be nice to have a 1st/2nd Horde fortress occupied mostly by old ghosts and necrolytes, somewhere which doesn't pose a threat of expanding but is too troublesome to just wipe off the map.

Also, Stonard is fine as a Horde hub for Blasted Lands and I'd rather see it expanded upon than add a tiny Horde camp which inexplicably doesn't get blasted by alliance mages every other day.


STV - Glittermurk mines

It's a neat lil place but a big part of what makes dungeons cool is the thematics and narrative and idk if I'm getting that from this. With a bit more sauce I can absolutely see it working but as cool as the environment is it does just sorta feel like a big swampy mine. Maybe I'm missing something and Venture Co could definitely use a dungeon of their own but I'm not really feeling much from this. Honestly I would suggest trimming the Naga and have it be more about Venture Co. mining their way into some kind of buried troll horrors.


Western Plaguelands - Andorhal

Looks solid and makes Andorhal a more dangerous place to quest since you can't just skim the sides so easily.


Tol Barad

Ngl it looks kinda naff. I don't mind a Baradin Hold dungeon but I feel like it might be worth saving for future Kul Tiras content.


Winterspring - Teles’aran

Winterspring does need more nelf stuff but without visuals it's hard to comment.


Winterspring - Star’s Rest

Looks cool as heck. Blue Dragons are pretty underdeveloped in Winterspring so might be nice to have a little smthn extra.


Azshara - Blackmaw Village

Definitely a no from me. The MoA hub is a really cool place isolated away in an endgame zone. It gives the vibes of exploring somewhere far more dangerous than the more settled zones, which leads me to:


Azshara - Valormok

As cool as this is it does come at the cost of Azshara's vibe. Azshara is basically a dead zone. It's filled with nothing but history and monsters so a big horde base hurts that. It also cuts off a lot of space for traversal down by the cliffside. I'm fine with a bit more development to Valormok but Splintertree Post is the Horde's frontline and there's nothing in Azshara to fight over so if anything it would be interesting to see Valormok reduced to a shadow of what it once might have been. A holdover from the 3rd war which is filled with older or disreputable soldiers who the Horde hasn't the heart or the luxury to discharge; a fun irony given the name of the settlement coming to mock their valour.


Azshara - Wobble Hollow

It looks lamer and has a worse name.


Mulgore - Mountain pass to Desolace

Having Desolace be too easy to reach poses the same issues as having too many NPCs in the Badlands. I'm fine with more quests in Mulgore but Desolace is a ruddy place full of war and bones and it feels it. Plus, the point of Mulgore is it's safe from the Centaur. Having a back door hurts that vibe.


Durotar - Darkspear Isles

The Darkspear Isles already exist in the lore and they are notably... wetter than this. As in they are underwater, driven there by the Naga Sea Witch in the Warcraft 3 canon custom campaign/prologue additions. The Echo Isles are the place the Darkspear settled after the fact.

Moreover, adding them behind the Kul Tiras barracks cuts away at the vibe of that Barracks being open to the ocean. Just bleak red hills, grey walls, and a forbidding dark blue expanse off to the horizon and the implication of Kul Tiras far off across the sea.

Plus, again as with the Gnomes, the Trolls benefit from starting with the Orcs. It conveys how small their place in the Horde really is. They are the survivors of a tribe whose small islands went undersea and who have had their homes assaulted several times by larger naval powers. They are the Horde's plucky underdogs and I'd rather see more put into the Echo Isles than an unrelated bunch of new islands which realistically shouldn't be there.


Durotar - Orgrimmar

I don't see a huge issue with this. You could argue the towers being outside of Orgrimmar and Undercity are intentional choices designed to make it easier for the Alliance to use them for PvP but given the harbour allows direct access to Stormwind's back door I don't necessarily see a huge problem the Horde having one too. There's some ugly bits about it though. I don't dig how badly the rock .gobs clash with the red of Durotar's terrain tho. OG Orgrimmar does a much better job of concealing the palette shift.


Stonetalon Mountains - Stonetalon Caverns

This is a big yes from me and a notable oversight on Blizzard's part. There's plenty of potential for those caverns and what has happened to them over the years in the Oracle's absence, perhaps something to do with Druidism and the Emerald Nightmare. The human contingent once stationed there reduced to skeletons or maddened shadows of their former selves, ancient Tauren druidism vibes, some underground Nelf ruins, plenty of fun things to explore.


Desolace - Squigglecord Outpost

Yeah that does look really ass and again with the terrible name. It's not a good look when Gnome Enjoyers also treat them like a joke. More unnecessary junk.


Barrens - Wailing Caverns

Damn shame. It's got a lot of cool elements to it. But again it's just a case of WC not needing the overhaul. Some of these gobjects and terrain pieces could be added to WC to juice it up a little or they could be recycled for use in a different location, perhaps the Stonetalon Caverns.


Barrens - Fort Airheart

Feels really tacked on and there's a big danger with exploring ON TOP of the cliffs in Vanilla because those cliffs are there to uphold the illusion that the world is larger than it is. Being able to look down into multiple zones is pretty vibe-killing.


Tanaris - Steamwheedle port

Yeah this is pretty dang cool. I fucks wiv it.


Tanaris - Anje Watha

It's nice but it really robs the Silithid Hive beneath it of it's imposing and alien vibes if you can just build a lil town next to one.


Tanaris - Uldum

It's cool enough, sure. Repurpose the assets maybe.


Overall the vibes of Epoch are, as I expressed when I was in their forums before their project launched and died then relaunched then re-died, they just did not understand Vanilla the way the Turtle team did. A lot of unnecessary additions which make the world feel smaller or don't make the most of the space provided. Turtle's early additions also have a lot of those problems but I think they were more respectful about what they put where. There's plenty worth transporting into MoA here but most of this stuff feels very gameplay focussed and without much consideration to the lore.

Thanks for taking your time writing this up. I appreciate the differing opinion, to know how others feel about this.

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 6:12 pm There is a danger in adding too many safe places and hubs to a zone in that it makes it too safe for PvP and too comfortable for questing.

This is a good point, I don't think this zone was a safe spot on Epoch (no guards), especially since they added a mechanic of when the World Boss in BS was alive, the whole zone was a PvP zone.

I also agree with BS being focused on Orcs, while SG being the Dark Iron zone - unfortunately, MoA already broke this theming by adding the Quarry dungeon, and the small hub of Shadowforge detractors.

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 6:12 pm Elwynn Forest - Goldshire
Agreed, a change for a change's sake is what ruined WoW to begin with. Plus I'm pretty sure I saw Epoch used the alpha models which are kinda ass ugly and weirdly proportioned.

Yes, those are the Alpha models.
MoA is also guilty of using too much of Alpha models. I understand that's how Turtle started, and that they wanted to add cool unseen assets, but some of them just do not fit. Sorrowguard Keep using the extremely ugly Alpha model, for example.
the new Gnomeregan is also an old Alpha model, and that one also looks really bad.
Some Alpha models fit well. Like the tower in Hateforge Quarry, or the tower at the north part of Ironforge Airport.

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 6:12 pm Westfall - Deadmines
but I wouldn't mind some optional rooms inside the juggernaut either.

The idea of this whole post is adding all of these as they are, no changes. Modyfing these maps, or making new ones based on these ideas defeats the purpose. The purpose is to easy copy and paste of the terrain.

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 6:12 pm STV - Glittermurk mines
Maybe I'm missing something and Venture Co could definitely use a dungeon of their own but I'm not really feeling much from this. Honestly I would suggest trimming the Naga and have it be more about Venture Co. mining their way into some kind of buried troll horrors.

Venture Co play an increased role in MoA compared to regular Vanilla, so it would be fitting to dedicate one of the lower level dungeons to their thematic and story.
As you said, the dungeon doesn't feel like anything special. It feels like going on an extended outdoors cave/mine. But that's also a good adventure in WoW. Not everything needs to be special.

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 6:12 pm Tol Barad
Ngl it looks kinda naff. I don't mind a Baradin Hold dungeon but I feel like it might be worth saving for future Kul Tiras content.

That is not coming for a very long time, if ever. The question for now is, is this one small island good enough to expand the Kul Tiras story for now?

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 6:12 pm Azshara - Wobble Hollow

It looks lamer and has a worse name.

lol, not wrong tho

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 6:12 pm Mulgore - Mountain pass to Desolace

Having Desolace be too easy to reach poses the same issues as having too many NPCs in the Badlands. I'm fine with more quests in Mulgore but Desolace is a ruddy place full of war and bones and it feels it. Plus, the point of Mulgore is it's safe from the Centaur. Having a back door hurts that vibe.

Mulgore doesn't need any more quests, I think it might be the best balanced starting zone in MoA. The Desolace Pass quests could expand Desolace's quest options, tho.
But I also agree on the "safe from Centaurs" reasoning.

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 6:12 pm Durotar - Darkspear Isles
I'd rather see more put into the Echo Isles than an unrelated bunch of new islands which realistically shouldn't be there.

Realistically, those ARE the Echo Isles, just more of them. MoA already added one more to the south.
Now I never truly understood wheter Epoch intended these Islands to be THE Darkspeak Isles from the War3 campaing, or if they are new islands that the Darkspear inhabited after the original ones drowned, and just called them that, because they are the islands that the Darkspear live on now.

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 6:12 pm Durotar - Orgrimmar

I don't dig how badly the rock .gobs clash with the red of Durotar's terrain tho. OG Orgrimmar does a much better job of concealing the palette shift.

This might be the map editor inconsistency. The transition ingame is absolutely seemless.

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 6:12 pm Barrens - Wailing Caverns
Some of these gobjects and terrain pieces could be added to WC to juice it up a little or they could be recycled for use in a different location, perhaps the Stonetalon Caverns.

If it didn't look so identical in certain parts, it could perhaps work as a different wing of WC, or a WC raid.
But I don't think any of that is necessary, it would be just adding things for the sake of adding things. (something early MoA suffers from a bit)

Not much to really argue about there but with regards to the Stranglethorn dungeon, not everything needs to be special but there's no reason it can't be either. A big part of what makes Warcraft as good at it is is that Blizzard committed to making as much of the world and the experience special as possible. If the dungeon can be spiced up and given a good narrative to make it feel like more than just a fancy cave-dive then that's what should be done.

Moreover, adding a weak dungeon to the pool cheapens the concept of dungeons themselves and sets a bad precedent going forwards for standards. This is the kind of mindset behind 'Blizzard Polish'.

And that also extends to Tol Barad. It's not enough for something to be novel. It has to be up to par otherwise it cheapens the experience. There's plenty of potential in what Epoch did but the same as with a lot of early Turty content there is a steep drop in quality. I have been in love with this game for 20 years. I am a patient man. I can wait for something to be made good and I would rather wait then it come out and suck ass.

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 10:02 pm If the dungeon can be spiced up and given a good narrative to make it feel like more than just a fancy cave-dive then that's what should be done.

While I agree, something like a fancy cave-dive that lacks narrative also sounds cool. Maybe not everything needs, or should have an intricate story... but be more random/coincidental just for the sake of it.

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 10:02 pm Not much to really argue about there but with regards to the Stranglethorn dungeon, not everything needs to be special but there's no reason it can't be either. A big part of what makes Warcraft as good at it is is that Blizzard committed to making as much of the world and the experience special as possible. If the dungeon can be spiced up and given a good narrative to make it feel like more than just a fancy cave-dive then that's what should be done.

That's fully on the Octo team at this point.
They have the blueprint and the dungeon layout - now it's up to them to craft a narrative and story inside it.

Epoch's narrative was rather simple, continuing the presence of Venture Co in STV, and how they dig greedily too deep to uncover hidden secrets of this ancient jungle. The second boss is a big Crystal Basilisk that they accidentally uncovered, and then tried to board off from the rest of the mine.
And the last part of the dungeon is the mine entering an old underground water reservoir where the Nagas are congregating around an ancient Sea Giant.
The secret Kraken boss you summon in the main flooded area of the mine by killing his smaller tentacles, is undoubtedly a good idea, the only thing I really disliked about it, it's using the Wotlk tentacle model, which don't fit into Vanilla aesthetics.

All of this carriers the rather simple theme of Venture Co digging too deep and too greedily, further emphasizing how they don't belong into the ancient jungle of STV.

Octo could go some other route, but they also should be fleshing the Venture Co more, seeing how one of the playable races have a huge backstory with them that's not elaborated upon outside of the starting area.

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 10:02 pm I am a patient man. I can wait for something to be made good and I would rather wait then it come out and suck ass.

I understand, but not everyone is. One complain I keep seeing about Octo is that there is no guarantee of new content being added.

WoW is an ever updating game, and some people like the solace of there always being something new on the horizon in their favorite game.

Adding any new small addition that they don't have to work hard on, would send a positive message to these players.

Berdal wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 11:43 pm

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 10:02 pm If the dungeon can be spiced up and given a good narrative to make it feel like more than just a fancy cave-dive then that's what should be done.

While I agree, something like a fancy cave-dive that lacks narrative also sounds cool. Maybe not everything needs, or should have an intricate story... but be more random/coincidental just for the sake of it.

There is only one dungeon in Classic that fits that description and it's the Stockades, widely regarded as the worst dungeon in Classic for many reasons but most importantly forgettable and largely inconsequential to the wider world and narrative and essentially just exists for the sake of faction parity with the far better designed and narrated Ragefire Chasm.

There is no reason to not put the effort into making a place worth going to for more than "the sake of it" and shrugging our shoulders and accepting "We couldn't be bothered to make it interesting." leads to results so conspicuously mid that it becomes infamous. Warcraft deserves the extra mile and writing a narrative worth exploring isn't even the extra mile. It is, if anything, by far and away the easiest part of dungeon design. Failing on even that front is pretty comical.

Watching a playthrough I gotta say most of the bosses are more or less just the Deadmines/Blackfathom again but worse. An overseer boss with a hammer in the opening mining area followed by a Shredder boss. Murloc boss next to an altar. Secret boss in the water. Big monster at the bottom of the cave. Only Deadmines has way more sauce, and its cave assets are unique to itself and the same for Blackfathom plus it's cool underground temple vibes. The only novelty in the dungeon is the minetrack cave model being filled with swamp water and the Sea Giant having an unique skin recolour.

What might be a better option is to just see if this layout can be fit into the overworld somehow and have it be a non-elite overworld dungeon akin to Jaedenar. Something designed to be tackled by one powerful character or more realistically a team of 2 or 3 people at once. Venture Co. are mining their way through the ground, they disturb something ancient and dangerous, and earthquakes start happening which prompts the Steamwheedle Cartel to get involved. Instead of bosses there can be a WANTED quest for a set of 3 overseers. The Basilisk can be an elite optional fight which drops a quest-giving item (it's head) to bring back to Nessingwary for a bounty. The water can be filled with bog elementals instead of tentacles and a sample is needed from one of them for study into something or other (perhaps an Apothecarium quest for the Horde to find new and lethal pathogens). An Alliance quest to free trapped slaves being used as miners. A Horde quest from the Labour Union to kill the Site Chief as revenge for his actions against the people of the union. And instead of inexplicably giving way to Naga in the bottom of a sealed-off cave system with no water in it the depths become populated with troll ghosts, maybe something cool like how in Cata they turned Tiki masks into mobs. The base of the psuedo-dungeon having Troll tomb architecture and some kind of dead, rotting Gorilla Loa who was sealed away eons ago but who has broken free now and, though a shadow of its former power, it still poses a threat to with its earthquakes.

This sort of implementation makes much more sense given how everything in the dungeon is a reused asset and how in terms of threat and spectacle it's really not pulling it's weight next to Scarlet Monastery or Dragonmaw Retreat. It also was not hard to write something which made more sense than Epoch's attempt.

Rathotdog wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2026 4:36 am

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 10:02 pm Not much to really argue about there but with regards to the Stranglethorn dungeon, not everything needs to be special but there's no reason it can't be either. A big part of what makes Warcraft as good at it is is that Blizzard committed to making as much of the world and the experience special as possible. If the dungeon can be spiced up and given a good narrative to make it feel like more than just a fancy cave-dive then that's what should be done.

That's fully on the Octo team at this point.
They have the blueprint and the dungeon layout - now it's up to them to craft a narrative and story inside it.

Epoch's narrative was rather simple, continuing the presence of Venture Co in STV, and how they dig greedily too deep to uncover hidden secrets of this ancient jungle. The second boss is a big Crystal Basilisk that they accidentally uncovered, and then tried to board off from the rest of the mine.
And the last part of the dungeon is the mine entering an old underground water reservoir where the Nagas are congregating around an ancient Sea Giant.
The secret Kraken boss you summon in the main flooded area of the mine by killing his smaller tentacles, is undoubtedly a good idea, the only thing I really disliked about it, it's using the Wotlk tentacle model, which don't fit into Vanilla aesthetics.

All of this carriers the rather simple theme of Venture Co digging too deep and too greedily, further emphasizing how they don't belong into the ancient jungle of STV.

Octo could go some other route, but they also should be fleshing the Venture Co more, seeing how one of the playable races have a huge backstory with them that's not elaborated upon outside of the starting area.

Octosaur wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2026 10:02 pm I am a patient man. I can wait for something to be made good and I would rather wait then it come out and suck ass.

I understand, but not everyone is. One complain I keep seeing about Octo is that there is no guarantee of new content being added.

WoW is an ever updating game, and some people like the solace of there always being something new on the horizon in their favorite game.

Adding any new small addition that they don't have to work hard on, would send a positive message to these players.

This doesn't send the message you think it does. It's not new content, it's just someone else's content ripped and put into MoA. What people want is confidence in the team's design principles and creative skills, neither of which are necessarily served by this, and it essentially amounts to the same sort of work as they've got on their plate rebuilding and reintegrating the Nightmares of Ursol patch so it's not even a particularly novel showcase. Whilst I am on board with adding some of these features it's not because it will raise OctoWoW's profile, it's because they will make the experience better. The octo team will still have to prove themselves creatively.

I have high hopes for them, but I'd rather they focus on fundamentals and maintaining a quality product in the long term over trying to send a positive message that doesn't make a statement to their unique vision for the server going forward. I'm fine with Epoch integrations I'm just not gonna be impressed by it unless they contain their own written/adapted contentent.

I think Stockade has its place in Azeroth. And it brings some quests together. One of them being my favorite questline of Van Cleef... I agree it's the worst dungeon (it was way worse in classic when it basically had 0 drops), but there are other reasons why I think it's the worst dungeon. Not the narrative.