Highborne/Nigh elf mage

[Bonecrushaa223]

I think they would fit in better with the Horde, since they Highborne are very anti-Tyrande. And it would solve the problem of the Horde not having a "pretty" race and imbalance.

[Lane157]

Night elves having access to mage and some RP options through skins or other sources would be in line with orcs being warlocks. Highborne mage trainers could be hidden and secluded to avoid detection somewhere and a class quest could explain this fact. It could even be some kind of Shen'dralar emissary. I personally have no interest in NE mages but it makes total sense that they could be a thing when, again, orcs from Thrall's Horde can be warlocks.

[Octosaur]

I think they would fit in better with the Horde, since they Highborne are very anti-Tyrande. And it would solve the problem of the Horde not having a "pretty" race and imbalance.

Putting Elves in the horde as an attempt to solve that problem was the first and biggest mis-step down the path that has led us to Dwarves and Vulpera in the Horde on retail.

The reason there aren't "pretty" races in the Horde is because aesthetically and thematically the Horde value pragmatism and practicality. If you want to make pretty races give female trolls and goblins more design options, otherwise we just gotta make do with the fact that the Horde doesn't appeal to women and coomers the way the Alliance does.

[Bonecrushaa223]

I think they would fit in better with the Horde, since they Highborne are very anti-Tyrande. And it would solve the problem of the Horde not having a "pretty" race and imbalance.

Putting Elves in the horde as an attempt to solve that problem was the first and biggest mis-step down the path that has led us to Dwarves and Vulpera in the Horde on retail.

The reason there aren't "pretty" races in the Horde is because aesthetically and thematically the Horde value pragmatism and practicality. If you want to make pretty races give female trolls and goblins more design options, otherwise we just gotta make do with the fact that the Horde doesn't appeal to women and coomers the way the Alliance does.

What's more pragmatic than teaming up with the enemy of my enemy? Think about it, from a lore perspective it makes sense. Thrall's Horde is new on Kalimdor and they need all the friends they can get. The Highborne carry an ancient grudge against the Night Elves. So a faction of the Highborne (not the ones from Dire Maul, but another group) join up with Thrall as they plot to overthrow Tyrande and Malfurion.

No need to do any mental gymnastics to justify Blood Elves in the Horde like in TBC. Highborne Horde makes sense.

[Octosaur]

I think they would fit in better with the Horde, since they Highborne are very anti-Tyrande. And it would solve the problem of the Horde not having a "pretty" race and imbalance.

Putting Elves in the horde as an attempt to solve that problem was the first and biggest mis-step down the path that has led us to Dwarves and Vulpera in the Horde on retail.

The reason there aren't "pretty" races in the Horde is because aesthetically and thematically the Horde value pragmatism and practicality. If you want to make pretty races give female trolls and goblins more design options, otherwise we just gotta make do with the fact that the Horde doesn't appeal to women and coomers the way the Alliance does.

What's more pragmatic than teaming up with the enemy of my enemy? Think about it, from a lore perspective it makes sense. Thrall's Horde is new on Kalimdor and they need all the friends they can get. The Highborne carry an ancient grudge against the Night Elves. So a faction of the Highborne (not the ones from Dire Maul, but another group) join up with Thrall as they plot to overthrow Tyrande and Malfurion.

No need to do any mental gymnastics to justify Blood Elves in the Horde like in TBC. Highborne Horde makes sense.

So you've managed to write it so that the Highborne, iconic for their love of finery, their haughty personalities, and reckless use of magic belong in the Horde the same way Blizzard did for the Blood Elves... and in so doing ended up with the same problem. They compromise the aesthetic and thematics of the Horde and are going to massively outpopulate the other options because they are a race with Alliance visuals.

It's not enough to write yourself into a comfortable spot because you can do anything with writing. You could (and Blizzard did) justify Dwarves in the Horde. It doesn't address the other elements of the problem. You gotta solve all the sides of the rubix cube, man.

[Bonecrushaa223]

Putting Elves in the horde as an attempt to solve that problem was the first and biggest mis-step down the path that has led us to Dwarves and Vulpera in the Horde on retail.

The reason there aren't "pretty" races in the Horde is because aesthetically and thematically the Horde value pragmatism and practicality. If you want to make pretty races give female trolls and goblins more design options, otherwise we just gotta make do with the fact that the Horde doesn't appeal to women and coomers the way the Alliance does.

What's more pragmatic than teaming up with the enemy of my enemy? Think about it, from a lore perspective it makes sense. Thrall's Horde is new on Kalimdor and they need all the friends they can get. The Highborne carry an ancient grudge against the Night Elves. So a faction of the Highborne (not the ones from Dire Maul, but another group) join up with Thrall as they plot to overthrow Tyrande and Malfurion.

No need to do any mental gymnastics to justify Blood Elves in the Horde like in TBC. Highborne Horde makes sense.

So you've managed to write it so that the Highborne, iconic for their love of finery, their haughty personalities, and reckless use of magic belong in the Horde the same way Blizzard did for the Blood Elves... and in so doing ended up with the same problem. They compromise the aesthetic and thematics of the Horde and are going to massively outpopulate the other options because they are a race with Alliance visuals.

It's not enough to write yourself into a comfortable spot because you can do anything with writing. You could (and Blizzard did) justify Dwarves in the Horde. It doesn't address the other elements of the problem. You gotta solve all the sides of the rubix cube, man.

First you made an argument for "pragmatism and practicality" but now you're making an "aesthetic and thematics of the Horde" argument.

Which one is it? If you're argument is purely aesthetics, then yes you have a point. But if it's pragmatism, then that's a different situation.

[Octosaur]

What's more pragmatic than teaming up with the enemy of my enemy? Think about it, from a lore perspective it makes sense. Thrall's Horde is new on Kalimdor and they need all the friends they can get. The Highborne carry an ancient grudge against the Night Elves. So a faction of the Highborne (not the ones from Dire Maul, but another group) join up with Thrall as they plot to overthrow Tyrande and Malfurion.

No need to do any mental gymnastics to justify Blood Elves in the Horde like in TBC. Highborne Horde makes sense.

So you've managed to write it so that the Highborne, iconic for their love of finery, their haughty personalities, and reckless use of magic belong in the Horde the same way Blizzard did for the Blood Elves... and in so doing ended up with the same problem. They compromise the aesthetic and thematics of the Horde and are going to massively outpopulate the other options because they are a race with Alliance visuals.

It's not enough to write yourself into a comfortable spot because you can do anything with writing. You could (and Blizzard did) justify Dwarves in the Horde. It doesn't address the other elements of the problem. You gotta solve all the sides of the rubix cube, man.

First you made an argument for "pragmatism and practicality" but now you're making an "aesthetic and thematics of the Horde" argument.

Which one is it? If you're argument is purely aesthetics, then yes you have a point. But if it's pragmatism, then that's a different situation.

The aesthetics of the Horde are reflective of their pragmatism and practicality. These aren't isolated design elements. The Highborne are not like the Horde races. You can write anything to be the case if you're determined enough to make it that way but to do so you gotta say damn to the consequences of changing the round hole to fit the square peg or vice-versa.

The Highborne are Azshara and her lot. Their closest cultural kin are the Blood Elves. If you change them so they're not just a reskin of Blood Elves then they're also not Highborne. It's not impossible to play them as a sort of crippled, withered race with sallow cheeks and slit noses which would fit better into the Horde aesthetics if that's what you're after.

I could see Highborne shifting into something that fits into the Horde... but they won't be Highborne anymore once they change to do it, the alternative is to change the Horde.

[Bonecrushaa223]

So you've managed to write it so that the Highborne, iconic for their love of finery, their haughty personalities, and reckless use of magic belong in the Horde the same way Blizzard did for the Blood Elves... and in so doing ended up with the same problem. They compromise the aesthetic and thematics of the Horde and are going to massively outpopulate the other options because they are a race with Alliance visuals.

It's not enough to write yourself into a comfortable spot because you can do anything with writing. You could (and Blizzard did) justify Dwarves in the Horde. It doesn't address the other elements of the problem. You gotta solve all the sides of the rubix cube, man.

First you made an argument for "pragmatism and practicality" but now you're making an "aesthetic and thematics of the Horde" argument.

Which one is it? If you're argument is purely aesthetics, then yes you have a point. But if it's pragmatism, then that's a different situation.

The aesthetics of the Horde are reflective of their pragmatism and practicality. These aren't isolated design elements. The Highborne are not like the Horde races. You can write anything to be the case if you're determined enough to make it that way but to do so you gotta say damn to the consequences of changing the round hole to fit the square peg or vice-versa.

The Highborne are Azshara and her lot. Their closest cultural kin are the Blood Elves. If you change them so they're not just a reskin of Blood Elves then they're also not Highborne. It's not impossible to play them as a sort of crippled, withered race with sallow cheeks and slit noses which would fit better into the Horde aesthetics if that's what you're after.

I could see Highborne shifting into something that fits into the Horde... but they won't be Highborne anymore once they change to do it, the alternative is to change the Horde.

I would argue that Blizzard devs forced a circle into a square hole when WoW first came out. Originally, Night Elves were a neutral race and not aligned with the Alliance. They fought alongside both factions during the Battle of Mt. Hyjal, but they didn't care to take sides afterward. Culturally, they absolutely do not fit the aesthetic of the Alliance, especially when you consider the military-industrial complex the Humans, Gnomes, and Dwarves got going on versus the Night Elves' hippy, nature-loving culture.

A lot of post WC3 but pre-WoW lore (such as the Warcraft TTRPG that came out in the early 2000s) had the Night Elves as non-aligned. They were somewhat cordial with the Theramore settlers, but they weren't really "in" the Alliance. Plus, they had historical relationships with the Tauren because of their shared druidism. It was only when WoW launched in 2004 that Metzen shoehorned them into the Alliance. Metzen could've easily written a justification for Night Elves to be Horde if he wanted to.

It’s the same deal with the Forsaken. Pre-WoW, the Forsaken were originally written as a hermit crab nation unto themselves—neither Horde nor Alliance.

[Octosaur]

First you made an argument for "pragmatism and practicality" but now you're making an "aesthetic and thematics of the Horde" argument.

Which one is it? If you're argument is purely aesthetics, then yes you have a point. But if it's pragmatism, then that's a different situation.

The aesthetics of the Horde are reflective of their pragmatism and practicality. These aren't isolated design elements. The Highborne are not like the Horde races. You can write anything to be the case if you're determined enough to make it that way but to do so you gotta say damn to the consequences of changing the round hole to fit the square peg or vice-versa.

The Highborne are Azshara and her lot. Their closest cultural kin are the Blood Elves. If you change them so they're not just a reskin of Blood Elves then they're also not Highborne. It's not impossible to play them as a sort of crippled, withered race with sallow cheeks and slit noses which would fit better into the Horde aesthetics if that's what you're after.

I could see Highborne shifting into something that fits into the Horde... but they won't be Highborne anymore once they change to do it, the alternative is to change the Horde.

I would argue that Blizzard devs forced a circle into a square hole when WoW first came out. Originally, Night Elves were a neutral race and not aligned with the Alliance. They fought alongside both factions during the Battle of Mt. Hyjal, but they didn't care to take sides afterward. Culturally, they absolutely do not fit the aesthetic of the Alliance, especially when you consider the military-industrial complex the Humans, Gnomes, and Dwarves got going on versus the Night Elves' hippy, nature-loving culture.

A lot of post WC3 but pre-WoW lore (such as the Warcraft TTRPG that came out in the early 2000s) had the Night Elves as non-aligned. They were somewhat cordial with the Theramore settlers, but they weren't really "in" the Alliance. Plus, they had historical relationships with the Tauren because of their shared druidism. It was only when WoW launched in 2004 that Metzen shoehorned them into the Alliance. Metzen could've easily written a justification for Night Elves to be Horde if he wanted to.

It’s the same deal with the Forsaken. Pre-WoW, the Forsaken were originally written as a hermit crab nation unto themselves—neither Horde nor Alliance.

Okay? This isn't news, man, we all know the Nelves/Forsaken are odd-one-outs in the factions and shouldda been way better accounted for thematically as allies, but no the Night Elves were not actually gonna join the Horde. Ever. The Horde are cutting down their forests and when the Elves got mad about it the Horde drank demon blood and murdered their god in cold blood. Putting that aside and assuming the Night Elves are willing to just shack up with the guys who cut God's head off with an axe their aesthetic fits the Horde way, way less than it fits the Alliance. They and the Alliance are definitely not comfortable bedfellows but the Horde wouldn't even be IN the bed.

If this is the point the discussion has gotten to idk what the point of continuing it is even gonna be, man. Could you explain why, in spite of everything, you think the Highborne should be in the Horde?

[Bonecrushaa223]

The aesthetics of the Horde are reflective of their pragmatism and practicality. These aren't isolated design elements. The Highborne are not like the Horde races. You can write anything to be the case if you're determined enough to make it that way but to do so you gotta say damn to the consequences of changing the round hole to fit the square peg or vice-versa.

The Highborne are Azshara and her lot. Their closest cultural kin are the Blood Elves. If you change them so they're not just a reskin of Blood Elves then they're also not Highborne. It's not impossible to play them as a sort of crippled, withered race with sallow cheeks and slit noses which would fit better into the Horde aesthetics if that's what you're after.

I could see Highborne shifting into something that fits into the Horde... but they won't be Highborne anymore once they change to do it, the alternative is to change the Horde.

I would argue that Blizzard devs forced a circle into a square hole when WoW first came out. Originally, Night Elves were a neutral race and not aligned with the Alliance. They fought alongside both factions during the Battle of Mt. Hyjal, but they didn't care to take sides afterward. Culturally, they absolutely do not fit the aesthetic of the Alliance, especially when you consider the military-industrial complex the Humans, Gnomes, and Dwarves got going on versus the Night Elves' hippy, nature-loving culture.

A lot of post WC3 but pre-WoW lore (such as the Warcraft TTRPG that came out in the early 2000s) had the Night Elves as non-aligned. They were somewhat cordial with the Theramore settlers, but they weren't really "in" the Alliance. Plus, they had historical relationships with the Tauren because of their shared druidism. It was only when WoW launched in 2004 that Metzen shoehorned them into the Alliance. Metzen could've easily written a justification for Night Elves to be Horde if he wanted to.

It’s the same deal with the Forsaken. Pre-WoW, the Forsaken were originally written as a hermit crab nation unto themselves—neither Horde nor Alliance.

Okay? This isn't news, man, we all know the Nelves/Forsaken are odd-one-outs in the factions and shouldda been way better accounted for thematically as allies, but no the Night Elves were not actually gonna join the Horde. Ever. The Horde are cutting down their forests and when the Elves got mad about it the Horde drank demon blood and murdered their god in cold blood. Putting that aside and assuming the Night Elves are willing to just shack up with the guys who cut God's head off with an axe their aesthetic fits the Horde way, way less than it fits the Alliance. They and the Alliance are definitely not comfortable bedfellows but the Horde wouldn't even be IN the bed.

If this is the point the discussion has gotten to idk what the point of continuing it is even gonna be, man. Could you explain why, in spite of everything, you think the Highborne should be in the Horde?

Woah man, no need to get defensive over what-ifs. I already made mention of the enemy-of-my-enemy alliance of convenience scenario in which Highborne ally with the Horde because of their rivalry with the Night Elves.