Levia Files 2: GM Harassment and Censorship

[Kestrel]

This post sums up my thoughts perfectly. Putting all the accusations aside, one can simply take a look at what Levia GM posted here: https://octowow.st/forum/viewtopic.php?t=858&start=60 by scrolling down to the post of "Russ1anrenegade". The part about market manipulation and the overall tone of this post is tone-deaf at best and repulsive at worst. This is no rumour or drama mongering, it is literally the GM of Levia making this post. I play in a guild where multiple times over the last 3 years I had to deal with people passing out mid-raid due to drinking too much or smoking too much weed. That is the sort of mentality I am used to seeing, and I have nothing against people who play the game at a serious level. However; when those people boast about how they used people like me to pay for their guild bank in a boasting manner, I will dislike those people. No amount of intervention from above will make people like Levia. They dug their own grave by making that post.

No amount of muting people will make people like Levia. This is a social problem at this point. The massive disdain from everyone in the server directed at Levia is literally an immune system response from a community that is used to being loving and chill facing what can be best described as "alien". I have not written a single message in worldchat regarding Levia, but this GM treatment of Fruity is absurd. Fruity has been a very nice personality in worldchat, never speaking a single word of politics or "no-no" topics, instead harmlessly shitposting about in-game topics.

I think the biggest problem stems from a lack of unified stance from the GMs regarding this manner. The developer team and GMs should be on the same page regarding this Levia situation. When one GM mutes someone when they shouldn't have, or lets something slide when they shouldn't have, it feeds into this back and forth between people where whoever's ticket manages to find a favorable GM for their cause gets the last word. A statement regarding this all either internally to GMs, or to players would be nice to hopefully end this situation. By their own words, Levia plays by the rules, and people dislike that attitude. No matter what happens, that dislike will continue as a community issue.

Just to clarify again, I agree and don't think anyone on the team has the goal of making people like Levia. We should be, and I think that we are, on the same page about Levia. I think the difference internally mostly is around general moderation criteria and Levia happens to be the subject of the most "on the fence" behavior right now as we try to figure this out.

In a more meta sense, I think that we as a community are all trying to figure out together what is acceptable in this new space and what is not. This Levia fiasco is just the inciting incident for the conversation. At least that is how it feels internally and to me personally, idk if the rest of the community feels that way.

[Tassetasse]

I was directly asked by our GM's if the #FUCKLEVIA should be allowed and I decided that given our public ruleset that crosses the line into generic harassment. If you and the community disagree perhaps I/we need to adjust the line that we draw, but that is how that occurred.

I think that the "obvious efforts from the staff" that are being seen are really just a readiness of Levia members to make tickets, and a desire from our support team to respond to tickets. I will try to look into the ticket reporting history now to see if there are any individuals who may be too quick to report, and perhaps a chat with them with a ban warning will solve our issues.

Either way I want to make it extremely clear how this is occurring. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and if it doesn't stop squeaking it gets a (ban) hammer. So either way this will be resolved but none of this is an incident of GMs being in Levia's pocked or supporting the guild.

My ability to presage rain from dark clouds on the horizon aside, I appreciate that you're looking to draw a line and commit to curb the squeaking, but I don't think it's a winning strategy either.

As I understand your post, some people lawyered GMs to get them to take action in their favour. The players on the receiving end did not take it lying down and aired it. Now there's "ban warnings" for being "too quick to report" on the table. Do you think this will be the end of it? It won't, unless you pick a side and nuke the other side, which you shouldn't. You, and the GM team, simply allowed yourselves to be instrumentalised in a player dispute. Just don't. And if you issue account actions over this, it should be for disrupting normal GMs operations, after being told no action. There are also some tactics the GM team can employ to discourage players from clogging up the queue without threatening account action, but if I lay them out here, they may not work as well.

Dialling in what harassment is is tricky, I'm afraid I'll have to paywall those insights. But in this specific instance, you've made your job incredibly hard by declaring guilds a protected characteristic, because they aren't. Players can choose who they associate with. One key element of Vanilla is that there are social consequences for not playing ball, and your current approach to moderation is interfering with that process.

I think we can all agree #FuckLevia should be off the table.

Speak for yourself.

[Joyson]

Hello everyone. I am Ollgga. I am the guy that manages the inferior summoning business to Cel in N'zoth. I use my advertising macro to bring people together through emotion, whether it be positive (#HAILOCTO) or negative (#FUCKBLIZZARD), wishing to summon like minded people and perhaps even spark a conversation. I am a person that heavily believes that private servers are the future of World of Warcraft as Retail and Classic are swarmed by people with the mentality of not necessarily having fun but turning the game into a job.

Throught my history on this server, I had many problems with the way Levia has handled the many situations they've been through. The Pig and Lyric situation being an obvious outliar, along with many other allegations that are not provable. However, what is provable is what their GM Lopp have stated on the forums, which is that they intentionally skew the market for their own gain, engage in world boss mafia behaviour and gatekeep high-end recipes for themselves. There have also been many smaller, community problems, such as the majority of the players that do ninja in pugs, coincidentally being from Levia. They like to ask for proof of this, but the majority of the players that do get ninja'd don't even use forums that much and just ignore to never be with that player again. I and a few others had a problem with how they handle transactions when it comes to services. They usually give 1G as tip to craftsmen, don't pay summoners after being summoned and also charge upwards of 20g for Opal Cascade crafts themselves, showing their own hypocricy. Whether this is scummy or not is up for debate, I for one think that this is the mentality that belongs to Retail players and doesn't really give off Turtle Vibes. Due to this, I've always been against their guild along with many people.

What sparked many peoples real hatred for this guild, along with the accusations that were thrown against them, was the Pig/Lyric relationship and how they discussed how long they should ban a person, showing that a GM was very buddy buddy with a member of Levia.

However, I have high suspecions that its not just Pig that is in with Levia.

These suspecions arise from the fact I was sent 4 GMs back to back each day after this situation, due to my macro of my summoning service.

The first version of this macro was:

/6 WTS Hyjal and Hydraxxian Waterlords Summs! 5G! Use Special Codes to reduce the price by a Gold each! #HAILOCTO #FUCKLEVIA

I wanted to express my disliking for such a group, as did so many others after said situation. The world chat was livid with hate towards Levia, everyone with their own reasonings as there were many. For days the same people that continued their hateful rhetoric towards Levia continued, while I was continously harassed by GMs.

The first GM that came to me was a GM I've never met before. Arllekiino.

19:28 [Arllekiino]: Hi, can you please tell me what your #FUCKLEVIA means?
19:29 [Arllekiino]: Hi, can you please tell me what your #FUCKLEVIA means?
19:29 [Ollgga]: Well, I dislike the fact that the guild continuously controls the AH market, is a general world boss mafia (advertising themselves that way) and openly admit to doing these things on the forums.
19:29 [Ollgga]: I do not like the players there as I have met a lot of ninjas from there and I harbor a disliking towards them.
19:30 [Ollgga]: That and the recent situation with Pig made me dislike them even more.
19:31 [Ollgga]: Am I not allowed to say this?
19:32 [Ollgga]: Well?
19:32 [Arllekiino]: If this is an RP component, then you can play it, as long as it doesn't affect the people themselves, not their game characters. So I can't say you're breaking anything. So, I wish you good luck in your game.
19:32 [Ollgga]: So I can keep doing it?
19:32 [Arllekiino]: Or am I wrong?
19:33 [Ollgga]: No, I mean no ill will towards the people.
19:33 [Ollgga]: As in, its not a death threat. I know a lot of like...
19:33 [Ollgga]: Misinfo was spread around them
19:33 [Ollgga]: But this isn't about that
19:33 [Ollgga]: My summoning business has an ad component to it
19:34 [Ollgga]: I change it from time to time depending on the situation
19:34 [Ollgga]: #FUCKBLIZZARD
19:33 [Ollgga]: As in, its not a death threat. I know a lot of like...
19:33 [Ollgga]: Misinfo was spread around them
19:33 [Ollgga]: But this isn't about that
19:33 [Ollgga]: My summoning business has an ad component to it
19:34 [Ollgga]: I change it from time to time depending on the situation
19:34 [Ollgga]: #FUCKBLIZZARD
19:34 [Arllekiino]: Okay, then, good luck again. If anything happens, we're all here.) Arlekiino<3
19:34 [Ollgga]: #HAILOCTO
19:34 [Ollgga]: Aighty, thank you! Will keep it up then if its no issue!
19:34 [Ollgga]: I got a warning but hearing this makes me think its okay.
19:34 [Ollgga]: Take care!

This GM suspected this to be an RP thing at first, though I have clarified for him that it was due to the fact that I indeed had contempt against Levia. Yet still, he said that what I was doing was okay.

Then came the second GM the next day. Valette:

23:42 [Valette]: Hi Ollgga, I understand you've received some mixed guidance about your macro. I've confirmed with the leadership team that it does indeed violate a chat rule.
23:42 [Valette]: Specifically: "Please do not send messages that insult or harass a player or group."
23:42 [Ollgga]: The other GM said it was fine.
23:43 [Valette]: Yes, I know, that was incorrect and the rule has been clarified with that new onboard
23:43 [Ollgga]: Can I still write that I charge double for Levia...?
23:43 [Valette]: Sure, that's fine
23:44 [Ollgga]: So basically, I am just not allowed to use swear words?
23:45 [Ollgga]: What am I allowed to say? Can I write for example #DISBANDLEVIA?
23:45 [Valette]: Cant insult or harass a group, including a guild. The rule is open to some interpretation from the GM/mod teams. My best recommendation would be to avoid mentioning any people or groups specifically to avoid any future issues.
23:46 [Ollgga]: Very well, I will mention that they pay double.
23:46 [Valette]: I personally liked the blizz discount code
23:46 [Valette]: Thanks for your understanding, and apologies for the mixed message earlier
23:46 [Ollgga]: Everyone loves my adverts!
23:48 [Valette]: Take care, enjoy converting those soul shards into gold!
23:48 [Ollgga]: Moneh.

Now the ruling had changed. No longer was I allowed to mention a group or person by name, despite the fact that the entire world chat was still harping on them for a very long time now. Not only that, but the ruling made no sense. Could we not call out other players if they were ninjas? If we simply despised what they brought to the groups? Hell, in Levias case, its the entire server that they bring their culture. Remember what Lopp said: "I come from a game that gatekeeping and controlling resources is king and i bring that mentality to WoW for better or worse."

After this one, I had to change the macro. So I did. The macro had returned to its old self before Lyric/Pig situation. However, as stated in the chat log, I was allowed to charge them double.

So I did.

/6 WTS Hyjal and Hydraxxian Waterlords Summs! 5G! Use Special Codes to reduce the price by a Gold each! #HAILOCTO #FUCKBLIZZARD (Levia members are charged triple cuz they fat from market manipulation)

This to me was not a problem. The whole server knew they were doing this, as their own GM admitted to it. "Controlling a market is totally normal in classic wow - its how we paid for our guild bank and 3 tabs in it already. we use the eyes of shadow to do that on top of high end crafts that we do sell to the public but at a premium. we all agreed as a guild to gate keep recipes to drive the prices up so we all could make money. is it scummy, maybe, but that's something i am OK with."

The next day I woke up to see that I had a mute going on, it had 10 more minutes left on it. I was confused. Why did I get a random mute on my summoners after I had already complied with the GMs demands? I wrote a GM ticket to express my concern. An entirely different GM answered this one. Named: Ulisees.

11:41 [Ulisees]: H
11:41 [Ulisees]: Hi*
11:41 [Ollgga]: Hello.
11:41 [Ulisees]: do you still have a mute ban?
11:41 [Ollgga]: No its gone, but when I logged on today, it said I couldn't speak for 10 minutes.
11:42 [Ulisees]: there is nothing on the system, its gone now
11:42 [Ulisees]: Have a good day
11:42 [Ollgga]: Could I at least know how this could've happened?
11:43 [Ulisees]: Maybe there was still an active ban and when you logged it was 10min remaining on it
11:43 [Ollgga]: Why? I got visited by 2 GMs on the issue of me either making a coupon with #FUCKLEVIA on it, one GM said it was fine, other said it wasn't, I removed it and I still got a mute.

I never got an answer to my last question.

I wrote one extra ticket to insist on getting an answer:

"This morning when I logged in, I was going through a chat mute that was still going on and had 10 minutes left on its timer. I had complied with GM requests about my #FUCKLEVIA code yet I am still getting punished. I would like to know what is going on. One GM already came to me and only said that my mute was gone, never answered why I got muted in the first place. I'd like this to be answered.
Thank you.
Ollgga."

This GM ticket was never answered although it was deemed as resolved.

For two more days, nothing bad happened.

Though I had a pleasant little conversation with a very positive member from Levia. Risen. This guy is a Turtle WoW veteran, owner of an old TWoW Warlock Discord channel that put a lot of helpful info about Warlocks.

We had a nice, fun little conversation. (I promise this is important for later.)

01:37 [Risen]: hey!
01:37 [Ollgga]: hey!
01:37 [Risen]: I've gotten summons from you before! May I ask what's up with Levia?
01:37 [Risen]: I'm in that guild, that's why I ask
01:37 [Ollgga]: Ye I can tell
01:38 [Ollgga]: The problem is the mentality your officers and GM brings to this server.
01:38 [Risen]: I've been here for some time, they seem chill
01:38 [Ollgga]: World boss mafia stuff, market manipulation
01:38 [Risen]: What mentality?:O
01:38 [Ollgga]: Okay, let me...
01:38 [Risen]: Is that uhh
01:38 [Ollgga]: DIRECTLY quote your GM.
01:38 [Risen]: like normal class behaviour
01:38 [Risen]: classic
01:39 [Risen]: Go ahead!
01:39 [Ollgga]: "Controlling a market is totally normal in classic wow - its how we paid for our guild bank and 3 tabs in it already. we use the eyes of shadow to do that on top of high end crafts that we do sell to the public but at a premium."
01:39 [Ollgga]: "we all agreed as a guild to gate keep recipes to drive the prices up so we all could make money. is it scummy, maybe, but that's something i am OK with."
01:39 [Ollgga]: "I come from a game that gatekeeping and controlling resources is king and i bring that mentality to WoW for better or worse."
01:39 [Ollgga]: TF2 being one of them.
01:41 [Ollgga]: Along with me getting TWO different GMs telling me to shut up about Levia, stopping harassment.
01:42 [Ollgga]: I am sorry, I will not respect your BS guild whom sends GMs like hound dogs against players.
01:42 [Risen]: Well aye you do seem to talk about it a lot. I don't think persecuting a whole guild because of some people's actions is quite fair either, but it's hardly my place to say
01:42 [Ollgga]: One GM said what I was doing was fine
01:42 [Ollgga]: Then apparently THEY got told to RETHINK
01:43 [Ollgga]: And this time Valette came and told me to cease.
01:43 [Ollgga]: Which, in the forums, people DO suspect Valette to be a part of your guild.
01:43 [Ollgga]: Of course, it is forbidden for GMs to disclose that they're GMs to the players.
01:43 [Risen]: Just wanted to know your side. I honestly don't care enough to bother responding to all the negative comments coming from either side
01:43 [Ollgga]: If they're playing on a non-GM character.
01:43 [Ollgga]: But fuck me your guild are a bunch of assholes and most players that I see from Levia have been just that, Idiots, ninjas and assholes.
01:44 [Ollgga]: I persecute your guild for the actions of your Officers and GMs.
01:44 [Ollgga]: They represent their guild.
01:44 [Risen]: Unfortunate! Hasn't been my experience but maybe I just got lucky that I play with EU folks!
01:44 [Ollgga]: Well cool, good for you
01:44 [Ollgga]: You are not the one being hounded by fucking GMs.
01:45 [Risen]: Plenty of people in the guild report being harassed just because of their guild tag, which I reckon isn't fair either
01:45 [Ollgga]: Oh look, just another one of your members just wrote to me
01:45 [Ollgga]: "Hey can you suck my dick"
01:45 [Ollgga]: GOOD GUILD YOU GOT THERE
01:45 [Risen]: Sad
01:45 [Ollgga]: Yeah well, your guild deserves it.
01:46 [Risen]: Fair enough, thank you for taking the time to share your side of the story with me!
01:47 [Risen]: Happy summoning
01:48 [Ollgga]: Can I ask you something?
01:48 [Risen]: Ofc, go right ahead!
01:48 [Ollgga]: What do you think of my advert?
01:48 [Ollgga]: Do you like the blizz discount code?
01:49 [Risen]: The uhh "Levia members pay thrice as much" or all of it?
01:49 [Ollgga]: The other stuff, apart from that.
01:49 [Risen]: Oh, that part. Hmmm..
01:49 [Risen]: Well, personally I'm not one to openly insult others, even when I despise them. So maybe I wouldn't have included those codes
01:50 [Risen]: like #HAILOCTO is fun, the blizz one is a bit in bad taste imo
01:50 [Risen]: but again, live and let live!
01:50 [Ollgga]: The love must match the hate.

The next day, he'd try to speak with me again, but I wasn't interested.

The day after, one final GM visited me. Like the literal ghosts of Christmas past, present and future.

Halo.

10:40 [Halo]: I sent you a warning about your summon message
10:41 [Halo]: Please change it now
10:41 [Ollgga]: I am just saying that Levia has to pay triple?
10:42 [Ollgga]: Can I change it to "No business with Levia" then?
10:42 [Ollgga]: Cuz they don't even pay me
10:43 [Halo]: Remove the section about Levia please, I am so sorry they never paid, but I am battling people blaming other people constantly. Messages like this don't help me or this server. Lets keep it professinal and friendly for all and enjoy this game together!
10:44 [Ollgga]: So I can't AT ALL speak about Levia?
10:44 [Ollgga]: Lol what am I supposed to do, turn them away every time they send me a message?
10:44 [Ollgga]: Whoops, sorry, I sent again, that was force of habit.
10:45 [Halo]: That's how real business works. Or change your tactic! Whenever someone doesn't pay, write it down, and next time they ask, either charge them double or they pay up front
10:45 [Ollgga]: How can I make someone pay upfront on a summoning business?
10:45 [Halo]: Fight them at their own game, don't just spam chats with petty messages
10:45 [Ollgga]: "Petty messages" dude, I am just writing I charge more for them.
10:45 [Halo]: Get them to C.O.D you 5g from the mailbox
10:45 [Ollgga]: Takes like 2 mins to arrive, summ business needs to be fast.
10:46 [Ollgga]: I'll just write "No business with Levia"
10:46 [Ollgga]: I didn't want their money anyway, ill-gotten.
10:46 [Ollgga]: Otherwise this is bordering on censorship at this point cuz I don't want to deal with these people.
10:47 [Halo]: Fair enough! This server is growing and it can be great, there will always be bad players and horrible things. Together we can all control this and make it fantastic for evveryone. The small things count and go along way
10:47 [Ollgga]: #FuckLevia was harassment, I accept that. But then Valette said the "Charge more" message was fine. You guys keep moving the goal post.
10:48 [Halo]: I get it! We can't control every situation and we all have our own little "querks" on how things should be done. Lets just keep anything negative out of World chat ok?
10:49 [Ollgga]: No seriously, I got 4 GMs over me at this point, each demanding more. First GM said #FuckLevia was fine. Second GM said "No its not, charging more is fine", third one MUTED me, now you say "No don't say anything about them"
10:49 [Ollgga]: Also, I asked why I was muted, I didn't get an answer, even on a GM ticket.
10:49 [Ollgga]: Dude, its world chat, keeping anything negative is impossible.
10:49 [Ollgga]: Otherwise, you fall under censorship.
10:49 [Halo]: It isn't about Levia for me, it is the tone, the message, the language and the agreesive meaning. It gives a bad image and I think World chat doesn't need that
10:50 [Ollgga]: Tell me, what part of my message is aggressive and if I say "No business with Levia" is that also aggressive? Help me here, help me how I can write that I don't do business with Levia without it being aggressive and I'll do it.
10:50 [Halo]: I get it, World chat is hard to manage, we are doing our best now to reign it in. It will take time and we don't want to stop free speach, we just want to stop hate and sexual remarks
10:51 [Ollgga]: I have done ZERO sexual remarks.
10:51 [Ollgga]: I only manage a summoning business.
10:51 [Halo]: Not aimed at you directly. Just in general!
10:51 [Ollgga]: Then tell me, how am I spewing hate, just by saying that I charge them extra?
10:53 [Ollgga]: Go tell Garithros or others, I never said anything horrible about them and every time they spoke with me, I answered and spoke back with them, telling them why I don't like them. Not very respectful conversations, but I made know why I was doing the extra
10:54 [Halo]: If you don't want to do business with Levia, that's completely your choice. If you're offering summons, simply state something like "No business with Levia" and leave it at that. Please avoid comments that could be
10:54 [Ollgga]: Charge.
10:54 [Halo]: interpreted as trying to influence or provoke other players.
10:54 [Ollgga]: Okay! No business with Levia then.
10:54 [Ollgga]: BUT
10:54 [Ollgga]: If any other GM comes to me after you.
10:54 [Ollgga]: Saying that I have to remove that too.
10:54 [Ollgga]: I am making a forum post at that point.
10:54 [Ollgga]: Because this is too much.
10:56 [Halo]: I understand. We don't want to restrict free speech, and there's always a fine line to walk. Just avoid using aggressive or inflammatory wording in your advertisements, such as swearing or terms like "manipulates," as they create a negative atmosphere.
10:56 [Halo]: No business with a particular player is a legitimate business choice. Simply state it in a neutral way without adding negative or provocative remarks.
10:57 [Halo]: Screenshot this last statement from me and if any GM mentions it, show them this screenshot
10:57 [Ollgga]: "Market Manipulation" is a literal word their GM used to describe their strategy btw.
10:57 [Ollgga]: I SS'd all of these chat messages dw
10:58 [Ollgga]: I can like give you the direct quotes and even a link on where they utter these words. They are like poison to me.
10:58 [Halo]: Perfect! You take care for now, just keep your adverts professional and repsectful, you are running a little summon business and all should be fine
10:59 [Ollgga]: Aight then, bye. I don't want another GM after me. My god, it feels like I met the entirety of OctoWoW staff at this point.

The advert is finally changed to:

WTS Hyjal, Winterspring and Hydraxxian Waterlords Summs! 5G! Use Special Codes to reduce the price by a Gold each! #HAILOCTO #FUCKBLIZZARD (No business with Levia)

Now I was being told to not at all mention what was literally said by their own Guild Master. Why I did not do business with them. Everyone else dogpiling on them is fine, me doing this, is not.

The inconsistency is the real issue. I got told four different things by four different GMs fine, not fine, charge more is fine but don't say "market manipulation," now don't mention Levia at all. That's not really about my specific message anymore, it's about the server not having a clear, written policy that GMs are applying consistently. Though I do not believe the GMs are this bad at managing their rules. Rather, I am fully suspecting that GMs are doing their darnest to run cover for Levia at this point, they are keep trying to circumvent the same rules they, themselves have written to find a way to silence me. I am quoting Lopp describing their strategy as "gatekeeping," "market manipulation," and being fine with being "scummy." I SS'd and got Halo to explicitly bless the "no business with Levia" part to have written cover for my future despites, but at this point, I am fed up with OctoWoWs GMs and how they're running cover for a guild that has admitted to their wrong-doings, at this point, if this stands, it is also acceptable for GMs to silence people that criticize any guild that are doing scummy things as long as they are at the top.

Freedom of speech be damned I guess, I never called any specific member of Levia anything, I was just writing for verbatim what they themselves have admitted of doing.

And also, tin-foil hat moment, but if you pay attention to the writing styles of Risen and Halo, they are VERY, VERY similiar. Not just the writing, but the almost forced positivity. I wouldn't be surprised if they're the same person. Its a good choice to recruit the owner of an old Class Discord from Turtle WoW as your GM tbh.

And this... is my forum post. This is everything I have against Levia and how I think GMs are trying to find little holes in the rules that they have created themselves to silence me. GMs contridicting themselves, and this comes after Kestrel said that they're having a new reconstruction on their rules. I am in %100 belief that Levia is being protected by GMs after what happened to me this week and if you think I fabricated all of this, I have SS' of all of these chatlogs and would not be afraid of sending anyone that wishes to see them. Contact me in game if you want them, I'll send them to you over Discord. I don' t trust random Discord invites so unless you confirm its you, I won't accept.

Thank you for reading this huge wall of text.

didnt read

[Sheluvsramar2]

..

[Sheluvsramar2]

This post sums up my thoughts perfectly. Putting all the accusations aside, one can simply take a look at what Levia GM posted here: https://octowow.st/forum/viewtopic.php?t=858&start=60 by scrolling down to the post of "Russ1anrenegade". The part about market manipulation and the overall tone of this post is tone-deaf at best and repulsive at worst. This is no rumour or drama mongering, it is literally the GM of Levia making this post. I play in a guild where multiple times over the last 3 years I had to deal with people passing out mid-raid due to drinking too much or smoking too much weed. That is the sort of mentality I am used to seeing, and I have nothing against people who play the game at a serious level. However; when those people boast about how they used people like me to pay for their guild bank in a boasting manner, I will dislike those people. No amount of intervention from above will make people like Levia. They dug their own grave by making that post.

No amount of muting people will make people like Levia. This is a social problem at this point. The massive disdain from everyone in the server directed at Levia is literally an immune system response from a community that is used to being loving and chill facing what can be best described as "alien". I have not written a single message in worldchat regarding Levia, but this GM treatment of Fruity is absurd. Fruity has been a very nice personality in worldchat, never speaking a single word of politics or "no-no" topics, instead harmlessly shitposting about in-game topics.

I think the biggest problem stems from a lack of unified stance from the GMs regarding this manner. The developer team and GMs should be on the same page regarding this Levia situation. When one GM mutes someone when they shouldn't have, or lets something slide when they shouldn't have, it feeds into this back and forth between people where whoever's ticket manages to find a favorable GM for their cause gets the last word. A statement regarding this all either internally to GMs, or to players would be nice to hopefully end this situation. By their own words, Levia plays by the rules, and people dislike that attitude. No matter what happens, that dislike will continue as a community issue.

Just to clarify again, I agree and don't think anyone on the team has the goal of making people like Levia. We should be, and I think that we are, on the same page about Levia. I think the difference internally mostly is around general moderation criteria and Levia happens to be the subject of the most "on the fence" behavior right now as we try to figure this out.

In a more meta sense, I think that we as a community are all trying to figure out together what is acceptable in this new space and what is not. This Levia fiasco is just the inciting incident for the conversation. At least that is how it feels internally and to me personally, idk if the rest of the community feels that way.

I hope you find your line in the sand, this is a conversation that has been had for the last 20 years.

If you want to mute "FuckLevia" so be it, but you should allow 'LuckFevia'

this is the classic experience, and WoW as we know and love.

They've opened themselves up to criticism and scrutiny and are the only guild with accusations levied against them as such, and AS MUCH AS THERE IS NEITHER CONFIRMATION NOR DENIAL, A GM STEPPED DOWN DUE TO INVOLVEMENT.

PERCEPTION IS REALITY, WHERE THERE IS SMOKE, THERE IS FIRE.

I DO NOT HAVE TO BE AROUND A FARM TO KNOW PIGS, GOATS, AND COWS SHIT, NOR DO I HAVE TO SMELL IT.

There are private discords your staff do not have access to by VIRTUE of how you've modeled the decentralization of the serve.

If you have any additional GMs in that guild they need to /GQUIT immediately and move elsewhere, there are conflicts of interest.

Now suddenly the game isnt fun anymore for <LEVIA>, they're being harrassed, QQing.. they thought just because casuals arent pushing towards the content like -we- were, that we dont care? Such a shortsighted thought but when it wasn't fun, nor in consideration of the general playerbase it was "fair play" and "this is just classic" per Lopp?

Ultimately,

THEY NEED TO FEND FOR THEMSELVES, IF THEY ARE TIRED OF THE CRITICISM DISBAND AND RENAME. POINT BLANK. They can pay you in donocoins for name changes and if it persists then take action. Clowns like this would have been realm xferred. they deserve 0 oversight out of blatant violations, and i can understand why #FuckLevia wouldnt stand, but if Ollggaa wants to say #LuckFevia, and youre not muting him for #FUCKBLIZZARD your priorities are completely scuffed.

It wouldnt be out of bounds to ask you to publicly state what guilds had GMs in them, and then ask your staff moving forward to rename and move the fuck around if they want to continue playing with the community.

2 GMs have been fired/demoted due to their actions regarding player relationships WITHIN 3 MONTHS.

The onus and burden of delivering the performance of '0 trust' is on YOU, when there should be 0 trust in you but 100% trust in your SYSTEM, and so far we cant trust GMs in this system, And this is why LEVIA will ALWAYS be a fucking 10/10 meme joke because they exemplify the worst things of the classic experience.

We're having this convo because of TROLLING gone too FAR when their guild was in COHOOTS with GMS WHO HAD TO STEP DOWN regardless of what was proven or was not besides a fucking /w conversation (which inclines me to believe you know more than you lead on, but circumstantial evidence doesnt weigh enough)

[Darktifa]

They've opened themselves up to criticism and scrutiny and are the only guild with accusations levied against them as such, and AS MUCH AS THERE IS NEITHER CONFIRMATION NOR DENIAL, A GM STEPPED DOWN DUE TO INVOLVEMENT.

PERCEPTION IS REALITY, WHERE THERE IS SMOKE, THERE IS FIRE.

Nobody has been banned for talking shit on Levia, no assistance has been given to Levia by any GM. One GM (no longer here) did talk with a Levia member about their improper banning of a player. There is no favoritism happening to any guild. Having a #FUCK<InsertGuildName> will result in a mute warning no matter what guild it is about.

[Kestrel]

I hope you find your line in the sand, this is a conversation that has been had for the last 20 years.

If you want to mute "FuckLevia" so be it, but you should allow 'LuckFevia'

this is the classic experience, and WoW as we know and love.

They've opened themselves up to criticism and scrutiny and are the only guild with accusations levied against them as such, and AS MUCH AS THERE IS NEITHER CONFIRMATION NOR DENIAL, A GM STEPPED DOWN DUE TO INVOLVEMENT.

PERCEPTION IS REALITY, WHERE THERE IS SMOKE, THERE IS FIRE.

I DO NOT HAVE TO BE AROUND A FARM TO KNOW PIGS, GOATS, AND COWS SHIT, NOR DO I HAVE TO SMELL IT.

There are private discords your staff do not have access to by VIRTUE of how you've modeled the decentralization of the serve.

If you have any additional GMs in that guild they need to /GQUIT immediately and move elsewhere, there are conflicts of interest.

Now suddenly the game isnt fun anymore for <LEVIA>, they're being harrassed, QQing.. they thought just because casuals arent pushing towards the content like -we- were, that we dont care? Such a shortsighted thought but when it wasn't fun, nor in consideration of the general playerbase it was "fair play" and "this is just classic" per Lopp?

Ultimately,

THEY NEED TO FEND FOR THEMSELVES, IF THEY ARE TIRED OF THE CRITICISM DISBAND AND RENAME. POINT BLANK. They can pay you in donocoins for name changes and if it persists then take action. Clowns like this would have been realm xferred. they deserve 0 oversight out of blatant violations, and i can understand why #FuckLevia wouldnt stand, but if Ollggaa wants to say #LuckFevia, and youre not muting him for #FUCKBLIZZARD your priorities are completely scuffed.

It wouldnt be out of bounds to ask you to publicly state what guilds had GMs in them, and then ask your staff moving forward to rename and move the fuck around if they want to continue playing with the community.

2 GMs have been fired/demoted due to their actions regarding player relationships WITHIN 3 MONTHS.

The onus and burden of delivering the performance of '0 trust' is on YOU, when there should be 0 trust in you but 100% trust in your SYSTEM, and so far we cant trust GMs in this system, And this is why LEVIA will ALWAYS be a fucking 10/10 meme joke because they exemplify the worst things of the classic experience.

We're having this convo because of TROLLING gone too FAR when their guild was in COHOOTS with GMS WHO HAD TO STEP DOWN regardless of what was proven or was not besides a fucking /w conversation (which inclines me to believe you know more than you lead on, but circumstantial evidence doesnt weigh enough)

I fear this is getting redundant, but... we are letting Levia fend for themselves. We are enforcing our chat rules equally. If you are suggesting that we turn a blind eye to chat violations because you don't like the way this group plays the game (neither do I), then you have a gross misunderstanding of the values of our team.

You say you can't trust GM's in this system, can you give me an example of why not? There have been two GM's who have abused the trust, and both incidents were rectified within 24 hours, the worst harm that was done was to Chromie who was unable to play for a day. That sounds to me like a system that is working to ensure fair play, and like the incidents will naturally stop as bad actors are weeded out. Sounds to me like you know for a fact that existing GM's are either well behaved or issues will be corrected rapidly and transparently.

You can't have a transparent and accountable system without having to air out the ugly bits. Their guild was not in cahoots with a GM, a GM was too friendly with a member of their guild and was behaving in consistently unprofessional ways. It was addressed and affected parties made whole and we all move on. Clearly there is a lack of understanding on your part on what we have access to, but we can see everything our GM's do and have audited them repeatedly, especially as it relates to all their actions with Levia.

#FUCKBLIZARD is ok because it is not harassing an in game group or person (I assume no blizzard employees are playing but who knows I guess, if I get that ticket that will be a fun one)

[Gildark]

Meanwhile Levia members watching the server lose their minds for believing a few schizo posters baits. Kekw

[Dwarfwarrior]

Just commenting to disagree with the person saying we can all agree “Fuck<guild name here>” is harassment. That honestly feels like the most generic thing possible especially when saying fuck blizzard is a phrase that is so celebrated here. I wouldn’t consider anything other than repeated unwanted contact directly sent to the individual is harassment. Even then ignore exists so unless they are using multiple characters to evade the other players ignore I still wouldn’t say it’s really an issue

[Xiv96]

I think Levia are losers however, this being the only server drama is healthy compared to Turtle's seemingly zero drama but with Shenna and Crogge selling illicit services, gold and characters on the side without people noticing.

I wouldn't say I trust GM's on an individual level but I do absolutely trust Kestrel to do the right thing, key reason why is the way Lyric's involvement got handled, it's easy to flare up emotionally and call for his ban but looking at it objectively he did nothing wrong. Although I'm sure the easy way to handle it in a way that satisfies the community would've been to punish him.

Now even though Lyric didn't break any rule or do anything that should incur any administrative punishment he did display what most people would call morally reprehensible behavior and it adds to the community-wide distaste for his guild, among other things, which is totally understandable.

Also not being able to clown on guilds in World chat provided that you don't break any of the already established rules is silly. Levia can either bite the bullet and stomach the community clowning on them or they can stop the behavior that the rest of the flock is clearly rejecting.