Please dont balance classes baselines for PvP reasons

[Midokussyy]

I'm not against trying to balance obvious overperforming classes/specs for pvp, but it should NOT be done in a way that impacts pve.

A huge majority of the population is here mainly for pve and sees pvp as a for-fun minigame. The people who want to not interact with pve at all for their character progression and solely pvp is a very vocal minority in the grand scheme of things. For every person complaining on these forums about pvp balance theres probably 100 or more quietly and happily enjoying the game.

Theres no good reason that a majority of players should be subjected to their class being changed for the sake of a mode they might not interact with at all, or very little.

I think the per-class or spec dampening in pvp might be a best solution, as pvp power or resilience on gear is very anti-vanilla.

Shaman tanks are the most obvious example of this currently, they already took a pretty big hit with the last patch for the sake of pvp balance, bringing something that was already barely viable in later raids even lower, and they are still complained about in pvp. My fear is that any further nerfs for the sake of PvP would actually make them no longer viable for pve, which would be very counterproductive and disappointing for many, likely more than sole pvpers who it would benefit.

My suggestion would be to balance the classes mechanically in a way that makes them viable for pve first, and then if any pvp balancing needs to be done, tune the numbers during pvp only.

[Lane157]

Agreed. Dampening is supposed to be the tuning knob to balance PvP. PvP gear having specific stats can be another but PvE should not be negatively affected by PvP changes or complaints.

[Derektm99]

Agree whole-heartedly with this. Shaman tanking took a big hit because of PVP balancing, and for the long-term health of the class I would encourage the devs to eventually revisit those changes. No class should undergo major changes because of PVP.

[Zvyrhol]

As a PvPer I have different point of view.

I hate the last specific change being done to Priest in 1.18.1 - that is Lightwell. It was purely changed to satisfy PvE audience. Before the change, it healed massively for everyone who clicked it. After change, it procs only from heals.
That change was good for PvE healers because the problem was the players usually didn't click the lightwell so it was a waste in many cases. However, it killed this spell for non-healing specs such as Discipline or Shadow.
Before the change, both Shadow and Discipline could make use of it, especially in PvP (placing Lightwell in WSG tunnel is one example). After change, lightwell despite being baseline spell, could be effectively used only by healers.

I also remember infamous Hamstring change to be on CD for Warrior in CC2. Someone who thought it was good idea, definetely was a PvE player. The explanation was that Hamstring could proc some effect if I remember correctly.

[Therealvda]

I'm of a completely opposite mindset, this is a private server, it has no Warcraftlogs to post your parses on and brag about your damage, Classic PvE is already braindead so PvE balance is simply unimportant to me. You can clear any raid with 20 Paladins, there's no such thing as 'viable'.

True, I haven't done Turtle WoW's custom raids but I doubt they're suddenly going to jump from Vanilla's tank and spank to some Mythic Raiding mechanics.

[Nseternal]

pvp is half the game, more delicate to balance, and requires actual skill. it's just easier to balance for pvp and have pve adapt their parses.

[Gildark]

I'm of a completely opposite mindset, this is a private server, it has no Warcraftlogs to post your parses on and brag about your damage, Classic PvE is already braindead so PvE balance is simply unimportant to me. You can clear any raid with 20 Paladins, there's no such thing as 'viable'.

True, I haven't done Turtle WoW's custom raids but I doubt they're suddenly going to jump from Vanilla's tank and spank to some Mythic Raiding mechanics.

There are actual logs people look at though.

https://octo.chronicleclassic.com/

I generally agree with the notion that PvE takes priority over PvP as that's what the majority of the player base plays into and that PvP shouldn't effect the balancing of it, but if we're being honest here something needs to be done about tank shamans in PvP. They've been absurdly overpowered into raid boss territory way before Turtle WoW closed.

[Defiant]

Shaman tanks are the most obvious example of this currently, they already took a pretty big hit with the last patch for the sake of pvp balance, bringing something that was already barely viable in later raids even lower, and they are still complained about in pvp. My fear is that any further nerfs for the sake of PvP would actually make them no longer viable for pve, which would be very counterproductive and disappointing for many, likely more than sole pvpers who it would benefit.

I don't think people really understand how frustrated Shamans were with that change. I didn't feel it was that huge personally, but Shaman tanks are already struggling, and they always felt neglected for various reasons and hey we can argue about that til the cows come home but the reality is that the average Shaman Tank didn't feel all that great about their class and role and then they got hit with a relatively large change that seemed to only really happen because of PVP. I know more than one Shaman from Twow that if they moved to Octo wouldn't even play Shaman. ( hell I'm one of them, actually, but not because of the Tank changes-- because Resto was always neglected. ) and Elemental was never in a good place either.

I'm very much in agreement with everything you said though, and from what I've seen of the "PVP community" here they will never be happy. I don't see any reason to try to appease them because even among themselves they can't make up their mind on what they want. ( Except that they all want easy mode leveling. That's one thing they can agree on. )

I'm of a completely opposite mindset, this is a private server, it has no Warcraftlogs to post your parses on and brag about your damage, Classic PvE is already braindead so PvE balance is simply unimportant to me. You can clear any raid with 20 Paladins, there's no such thing as 'viable'.

True, I haven't done Turtle WoW's custom raids but I doubt they're suddenly going to jump from Vanilla's tank and spank to some Mythic Raiding mechanics.

Just so everyone is clear, this is the guy spamming the Director of PVP announcement thread demanding that Feral Druids get nerfed because they kill him as a Shadow Priest. He's genuinely spamming the forums complaining about a class that I've literally never once heard anyone claim is overpowered in PVP on Turtle. This guy has absolutely no idea what he's talking about, admits he has never engaged in PVE, and wants to change the game every time he gets killed. People like this should just be laughed at.

pvp is half the game, more delicate to balance, and requires actual skill. it's just easier to balance for pvp and have pve adapt their parses.

It's not even remotely close to half the game. It's certainly not half the community, that much is for sure. It's like what, one tenth of the community? And that one tenth of the community is the loudest, angriest, and most obnoxious part of the community?

I'm so done with the "PVP community" here. They're toxic and they need to be called out for it.

[Blindtongue]

I could argue the same, Sub rogue tree got gutted and turned into some kind of supportive raid spec just so folks can stroke their dicks to hyperoptimized raid dps parsing and meanwhile it completely destroyed the feel of the sub rogues and most playerbase has to actively force themselves to even fucking play it how much it sucks at its current state cuz its simply too much pve dps parse oriented.

How about we balance classess based on their objective performance in relation to other classes instead of one or other area of the game which is why we currently have this fucking shitshow in the first place lol

besides what fucking PVE balance exactly? All raids are braindead easy even with the fucking changes, ok k40 was demanding but like maybe 1-5% of playerbase even went in on Twow

when rogues started making 3-4k dps parses in naxx/k40 everyone was like "oh that is too imba" when the only reason it came too it its because couple PVE'rs were so vocal about their need to put Opportunity into Combat tree so they don't have to waste 5 extra talent points in Sub thus allowing them to do assasination / combat hybrid that blows everything out of the water simply because its too fucking optimized and half of us knew it and warrned that it will be too much lol when it was in fact the PVP crowd saying hey thats a bit too imba and too optimized lol

Same things with druids, Vda is correct, they got so much pointless qol changes compared to everyone else that objectively made them comparable to all the pure classes, hybrid classess were never supposed to be able to be played like that, most druids pick a form and barely even get out of it unless they need to dispel slow lol good pvp balancing for sure hahahhaha gimme a break

[Doaksie]

I'm not against trying to balance obvious overperforming classes/specs for pvp, but it should NOT be done in a way that impacts pve.

A huge majority of the population is here mainly for pve and sees pvp as a for-fun minigame. The people who want to not interact with pve at all for their character progression and solely pvp is a very vocal minority in the grand scheme of things. For every person complaining on these forums about pvp balance theres probably 100 or more quietly and happily enjoying the game.

Theres no good reason that a majority of players should be subjected to their class being changed for the sake of a mode they might not interact with at all, or very little.

I think the per-class or spec dampening in pvp might be a best solution, as pvp power or resilience on gear is very anti-vanilla.

Shaman tanks are the most obvious example of this currently, they already took a pretty big hit with the last patch for the sake of pvp balance, bringing something that was already barely viable in later raids even lower, and they are still complained about in pvp. My fear is that any further nerfs for the sake of PvP would actually make them no longer viable for pve, which would be very counterproductive and disappointing for many, likely more than sole pvpers who it would benefit.

My suggestion would be to balance the classes mechanically in a way that makes them viable for pve first, and then if any pvp balancing needs to be done, tune the numbers during pvp only.

This reads like a very nice way of saying the pvp realm is smaller so let's prioritize the bigger pve realms interests, which I don't think you would ever say if you primarily played on the pvp server.