Please dont balance classes baselines for PvP reasons

[Berdal]

Frankly, no you shouldn't have differing balance. Bad design choices that are made in regards to high end raiding (and all PvE changes are made primarily for that environment) are not just hurting PvP, but also make the classes vastly too powerful at levelling, farming and other aspects that don't even impact PvP.
PvP is just the aspect where bad design shows most.
Additionally, while the PvP server Exists, it is not the only way to consume PvP content. Some people like arena or bg pvp, but don't enjoy the possibility of getting jumped anywhere at any time by a bored rogue. Splitting balance along server lines leaves PvP shitty for those players.
But most Importantly, the devs dont have limitless resources. As a business they will have to allocate resources wherever they make money. And just because there are more players enjoying PvE, thats where you can expect most of their focus to go towards. Splitting into two separate versions that have to individually be maintained is doubled work for frankly not much financial incentive.

Unfortunately, both PvE and PvP players have in the past displayed "new toy syndrome" and played/endorsed some of the worst design choices ever made, just because they personally benefited from them.

I think Kairion hits the nail on the head here. I don't care what you think about that. It would be interesting to get a glimpse on your thoughts if you actually cared to dismantle and respond to each of the views and statements here... Not just attack the person, gatekeep the topic or otherwise dismiss contradictory opinions.

A couple hours ago you used the term witch hunt when deflecting from how you constantly back up Defiant regardless of him stringing together legible sentences with an actual point or not, constantly resorting to ad hominems and stifling discussion.

I couldn't care less the person behind the statement. I agreed to the sentiment in the post.

We've already exposed that you not only aren't 60 after multiple months of play time but that you also don't even have a character on the PvP server.

They don't seem to get that PvP happens on N'Zoth and PvE happens on Y'Sharaaj. They [...] PvP-gate the conversation.

Okaaay, so now it's 60-gating as well

I want a high healthy population on all realms. I advocate PvP and PvE balance issues to be handled commonly. The devs are already pressed on stuff to do, and some people talk about splitting development and segregating??? I too am tired of leveling yet another time. But that's the name of the game. Been so for 20+ years. Even if we're just repeating history once again, at least this time around you can export your data and there are Knowledge Keepers that hopefully are able to restore and keep going. The future looks brighter.

Obviously our opinions differ. But you're the one attacking the person and trying to invalidate my opinions. I've witnessed you try to cancel other people, and now you're going after me I've advocated for restoring 2x rested XP for instance. Which would constitute a game design change. The reduction of BG XP was a balancing issue. In this case, the devs agree on that.

Read your own previous post. You're attacking me and trying to invalidate my opinions. Either you're gatekeeping, a megalomaniac, narrow-minded or idk. WE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND DISAGREE. You have no business behaving like an absolute dick and cancelling, dismissing, attacking, gatekeeping.

[Knifewrench]

Frankly, no you shouldn't have differing balance. Bad design choices that are made in regards to high end raiding (and all PvE changes are made primarily for that environment) are not just hurting PvP, but also make the classes vastly too powerful at levelling, farming and other aspects that don't even impact PvP.
PvP is just the aspect where bad design shows most.
Additionally, while the PvP server Exists, it is not the only way to consume PvP content. Some people like arena or bg pvp, but don't enjoy the possibility of getting jumped anywhere at any time by a bored rogue. Splitting balance along server lines leaves PvP shitty for those players.
But most Importantly, the devs dont have limitless resources. As a business they will have to allocate resources wherever they make money. And just because there are more players enjoying PvE, thats where you can expect most of their focus to go towards. Splitting into two separate versions that have to individually be maintained is doubled work for frankly not much financial incentive.

Unfortunately, both PvE and PvP players have in the past displayed "new toy syndrome" and played/endorsed some of the worst design choices ever made, just because they personally benefited from them.

I think Kairion hits the nail on the head here. I don't care what you think about that. It would be interesting to get a glimpse on your thoughts if you actually cared to dismantle and respond to each of the views and statements here... Not just attack the person, gatekeep the topic or otherwise dismiss contradictory opinions.

A couple hours ago you used the term witch hunt when deflecting from how you constantly back up Defiant regardless of him stringing together legible sentences with an actual point or not, constantly resorting to ad hominems and stifling discussion.

I couldn't care less the person behind the statement. I agreed to the sentiment in the post.

We've already exposed that you not only aren't 60 after multiple months of play time but that you also don't even have a character on the PvP server.

They don't seem to get that PvP happens on N'Zoth and PvE happens on Y'Sharaaj. They [...] PvP-gate the conversation.

Okaaay, so now it's 60-gating as well

I want a high healthy population on all realms. I advocate PvP and PvE balance issues to be handled commonly. The devs are already pressed on stuff to do, and some people talk about splitting development and segregating??? I too am tired of leveling yet another time. But that's the name of the game. Been so for 20+ years. Even if we're just repeating history once again, at least this time around you can export your data and there are Knowledge Keepers that hopefully are able to restore and keep going. The future looks brighter.

Obviously our opinions differ. But you're the one attacking the person and trying to invalidate my opinions. I've witnessed you try to cancel other people, and now you're going after me I've advocated for restoring 2x rested XP for instance. Which would constitute a game design change. The reduction of BG XP was a balancing issue. In this case, the devs agree on that.

Read your own previous post. You're attacking me and trying to invalidate my opinions. Either you're gatekeeping, a megalomaniac, narrow-minded or idk. WE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND DISAGREE. You have no business behaving like an absolute dick and cancelling, dismissing, attacking, gatekeeping.

Once again this forum is for pvp server, move trolling to whatever server u came from. How hard is it to get that this forum is for the people on the pvp server, and yes ur opinion is toxic af, thinking u know what people on pvp server want without even playing or having experienced it. Its like asking a banking ceo, medical qhestions.

[Yotca]

Read your own previous post. You're attacking me and trying to invalidate my opinions. Either you're gatekeeping, a megalomaniac, narrow-minded or idk. WE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND DISAGREE. You have no business behaving like an absolute dick and cancelling, dismissing, attacking, gatekeeping.

I haven't attacked you. You have misconstrued, mischaracterized, outright lied — multiple times.
I have not gatekept anything. You're fully welcome to come play the PvP server.
What you shouldn't allow yourself to do and that's how I wrote it — is express views on certain topics that require lived experience ; without having said lived experience and lying about it. Don't conflate and confuse how you read things with how they've been written.


You still haven't addressed a single point made in favor of x2 xp since the start. Not one.

You're going for ad hominems again instead of addressing even a single one. You're everything you accuse people of and have failed to debate as circular arguments or bad faith and everything in between aren't considered debating — it's beyond shameful that you attempt to flip the script.

To address Kairon's points; if you want balanced PvE you play on the PvE server as the game is already balanced from talents, to classes, to encounters around PvE.

• Warriors, Hunters and Paladins 2h talents and scaling are balanced around having WF/totems/blessings
• Caster scaling is balanced around paladin threat reduction and Elemental shaman bonuses
• Many if not all fights are balanced around that and certain examples are more egregious than others namely Incantagos and his affinities — we have PvP server specfic versions of those fights for a reason ; this point also directly addresses the claim that we can't have separate mechanics and encounters — we already have that
• Y'Shaarj server not wanting dampening wouldn't affect N'Zoth server instanced PvP as the balance on N'Zoth is tuned on the aforementioned paladin/shaman combination
• Shocktank balance is as easy as increasing their threat and reducing their damage output — or do you genuinely believe Protpals and Protwars should also deal high damage, which would make melee lives more miserable again?
• Exhaustive ressources is the strongest point being made, to which I'd reply that we're not asking for complicated split balance but minor things that are easy to tune without much effort. Another point relative to that is that PvP players per capita make up a larger part of revenue — the S&S and dungeon mob tag nerfs were specifically aimed at PvE players trying to cheat the server out of donation tokens ; challenge characters receiving self boosts being bannable was also for that reason
• If the PvP server exclusively gets its share of allocated ressources relative to the PvE server you'd be surprised to see how much we get and you don't since we're mainly asking for minor things
• x2 xp pushback by devs is financially linked to the former points as it would dramatically increase the amount of donation points available for free

Berdal, I've always addressed everyone's points. Yours, Joyson's, Defiant's, Zeniet's etc.
You four are responsible for nearly entirely all the pushback, if not all, as Tifa's (who's a known player on Y'Shaarj) point was repeatedly that the devs do as they wish, to which our retort — all of us said it — that we can still make ourselves heard even if they have the final decision.
Address all my points before you ever make another blanket statement regarding the Y'Shaarj players or myself.

You are intellectually dishonest to a point that borders on multiple of the mental and ego related conditions you've described others as suffering from.

[Berdal]

Berdal, I've always addressed everyone's points.

And still we disagree with you.

[Yotca]

Berdal, I've always addressed everyone's points.

And still we disagree with you.

Disagreeing without ever addressing any point while asking others to do it... as you've repeatedly done — you've made your stance clear. You have and will resort to the same methods over and over again. Try to be honest at least over a game if you can't uphold yourself to that simple moral standard in your day to day life.

[Kairion]

[...]

To address Kairon's points; if you want balanced PvE you play on the PvE server as the game is already balanced from talents, to classes, to encounters around PvE.

• Warriors, Hunters and Paladins 2h talents and scaling are balanced around having WF/totems/blessings
• Caster scaling is balanced around paladin threat reduction and Elemental shaman bonuses
• Many if not all fights are balanced around that and certain examples are more egregious than others namely Incantagos and his affinities — we have PvP server specfic versions of those fights for a reason ; this point also directly addresses the claim that we can't have separate mechanics and encounters — we already have that
• Y'Shaarj server not wanting dampening wouldn't affect N'Zoth server instanced PvP as the balance on N'Zoth is tuned on the aforementioned paladin/shaman combination
• Shocktank balance is as easy as increasing their threat and reducing their damage output — or do you genuinely believe Protpals and Protwars should also deal high damage, which would make melee lives more miserable again?
• Exhaustive ressources is the strongest point being made, to which I'd reply that we're not asking for complicated split balance but minor things that are easy to tune without much effort. Another point relative to that is that PvP players per capita make up a larger part of revenue — the S&S and dungeon mob tag nerfs were specifically aimed at PvE players trying to cheat the server out of donation tokens ; challenge characters receiving self boosts being bannable was also for that reason
• If the PvP server exclusively gets its share of allocated ressources relative to the PvE server you'd be surprised to see how much we get and you don't since we're mainly asking for minor things
• x2 xp pushback by devs is financially linked to the former points as it would dramatically increase the amount of donation points available for free

I'd like to follow up on the Windfury example.
This is exactly why I don't think the game is balanced for anything but parser raiding, which itself is a tiny fraction of PvE.

Melees are currently certainly balanced around the existence of the WF totem, and Retpaladin especially is functionally inoperable without it. This decision to balance around windfury instead of toning down its potential impact is a bad idea on any server. A Retpally on N'Zoth in group/raid content who is a couple shamans short is having an equally unsatisfactory evening as one playing on Y'Shaarj.

The obviously correct choice here is to address Retpaladin so he is playable with and without having access to WF totem.

The same line of logic should go for ANY spec in the game. PvE or PvP

[Yotca]

I'd like to follow up on the Windfury example.
This is exactly why I don't think the game is balanced for anything but parser raiding, which itself is a tiny fraction of PvE.

Melees are currently certainly balanced around the existence of the WF totem, and Retpaladin especially is functionally inoperable without it. This decision to balance around windfury instead of toning down its potential impact is a bad idea on any server. A Retpally on N'Zoth in group/raid content who is a couple shamans short is having an equally unsatisfactory evening as one playing on Y'Shaarj.

The obviously correct choice here is to address Retpaladin so he is playable with and without having access to WF totem.

The same line of logic should go for ANY spec in the game. PvE or PvP

Agreed — Retpaladins on PvP server have to use some wonky wolf summon spec to deal damage. If anything windfury should be a plus not a crutch you can't walk without.

[Berdal]

Disagreeing without ever addressing any point while asking others to do it... as you've repeatedly done — you've made your stance clear. You have and will resort to the same methods over and over again. Try to be honest at least over a game if you can't uphold yourself to that simple moral standard in your day to day life.

You're exhausting to interact with. Not entertaining your agenda anymore. Keep harassing everyone like a true PvP griefer.

[Yotca]

Disagreeing without ever addressing any point while asking others to do it... as you've repeatedly done — you've made your stance clear. You have and will resort to the same methods over and over again. Try to be honest at least over a game if you can't uphold yourself to that simple moral standard in your day to day life.

You're exhausting to interact with. Not entertaining your agenda anymore. Keep harassing everyone like a true PvP griefer.

Other than yourself or Defiant no one has made that claim. However you've pissed off enough people for you to get shat on the PvP discord within seconds by two dozen people.

If you're not going to address a single argument since day one and only act in bad faith; Stay out of PvP server discussions Mr.Liar

We welcome constructive debate with structured and coherent arguments that address the claims as they are — none of which you or Defiant have done. We've engaged respectfully with everyone except the minority of jackasses like you two that have done nothing but shit stirring while being unable to string together an intelligible thought or argue against a single point made by multiple different people.

God laughs at men who deplore the consequences but cherish the causes.

[Ahzari]

Disagreeing without ever addressing any point while asking others to do it... as you've repeatedly done — you've made your stance clear. You have and will resort to the same methods over and over again. Try to be honest at least over a game if you can't uphold yourself to that simple moral standard in your day to day life.

You're exhausting to interact with. Not entertaining your agenda anymore. Keep harassing everyone like a true PvP griefer.

Other than yourself or Defiant no one has made that claim. However you've pissed off enough people for you to get shat on the PvP discord within seconds by two dozen people.

Stay out of PvP server discussions Mr.Liar

this guy has a crow as his avatar dont talk to him at all