OctoWoW Has an Opportunity to Get Class Balance Right

[Vsix]

Hi. I'm a Turtle WoW veteran concerned about the future of the game and the direction it was moving before that server closed.

I have a simple plea for the new developer team: do not fall into the same balance traps as your predecessors. You can do better. It pained me to watch how far Turtle strayed from core design principles like role specialization and meaningful costs to power. Everything became more. More damage, more survivability, more tools stacked on top of each other. You have a genuine opportunity here to course correct these design philosophies before they set in again.

When a Warrior wants to prioritize dealing damage, they are required to sacrifice. Wearing leather eliminates the natural survivability advantage of plate. Death Wish reduces your armor and resistances by 25%. Recklessness increases damage taken by 20%, Berserker Stance increases damage taken by another 10%. This concept isn't exclusive to Warrior. Paladins deal 60% reduced damage during Divine Shield. Arcane Power can literally kill an Arcane Mage if they use it at low mana. These create choices, trade-offs, calculated risks that can punish you for making the wrong choice at the wrong time. Class and itemization balance is healthiest when power gained in one area costs something, through opportunity or penalty, in another.

Karazhan 40 itemization also followed this philosophy to a degree. Many pieces lacked stamina, and some classes had to meaningfully sacrifice survivability if they wanted to maximize damage. The principle was not entirely absent. But there were also places where the old developers ignored it.

One of the clearest examples came with the Combat Rogue overhaul in patch 1.18. They received a talent change that increased energy regeneration based on Agility. Agility was already a premium stat for the class. It now provides attack power, critical strike, dodge, armor, and energy regeneration. Incentivizing stacking it has implications that go further than parsing on a damage meter, although Combat Rogues dominated the leaderboards on Nordanaar.

Rogues gain 1% Dodge for every 14.5 Agility. Hunters require 26.5 Agility per 1% Dodge, the worst scaling in the entire game, despite directly sharing the same 'evasive' class fantasy niche. A raid-buffed Combat Rogue in full PvE DPS best-in-slot K40 gear reached roughly 71.5% passive avoidance. Passive. That is before Evasion, Ghostly Strike, or Flourish, without making any sacrifices to their damage. That defensive profile is more easily compared to a tank's than to other damage dealers. Once fully geared, the spec operated as the quintessential top-dps with extraordinary physical avoidance, minimal threat concerns, escape tools, crowd control, and high mobility.

This is not a problem exclusive to Combat Rogue itemization and design. You don't need to look very hard to find other classes and specs overreaching their roles in any aspect of the game. The problem is the overall design approach that repeatedly added power, survivability, and convenience to already capable kits while reducing any visible costs that used to define their roles. OctoWoW does not have to continue that pattern. When a design change provides a significant advantage, it should come at some kind of meaningful cost or existing weakness in other areas. Those constraints are what prevent one build from simply becoming the best choice offensively, defensively, and functionally at the same time.

I don't want the game's balance to turn into a rigid system where every strength must have an equal and opposite weakness. That would detract from the identity of Classic, but balance should still be rooted in something more than just 'what feels better'. A systematic approach, at the very least, can help identify what and where the problems are. I don't want to request any specific numeric adjustments. That should be a discussion among the balance team. That said, here are some interesting statistics:

Tier | Class | Spec : Effective Health vs Physical (HP / (1 - Armor DR)) | Avoidance | EHP after Avoidance (EHP / (1 - Avoidance))

K40 | Rogue | Combat-Dagger : 12000 EHP | 71.5% Avoidance | 42105 EHPA
Naxx | Rogue | Combat-Dagger : 11868 EHP | 69.6% Avoidance | 39039 EHPA
K40 | Rogue | Combat : 11826 EHP | 70.66% Avoidance | 40306 EHPA
Naxx | Rogue | Combat : 12415 EHP | 69.52% Avoidance | 40731 EHPA
K40 | Rogue | Subtlety : 10787 EHP | 53.45% Avoidance | 23172 EHPA
Naxx | Rogue | Subtlety : 11742 EHP | 51.55% Avoidance | 24235 EHPA

K40 | Hunter | Survival : 14559 EHP | 43.55% Avoidance | 25790 EHPA
Naxx | Hunter | Survival : 14669 EHP | 42.64% Avoidance | 25573 EHPA
K40 | Hunter | Marksman : 15153 EHP | 40.15% Avoidance | 25318 EHPA
Naxx | Hunter | Marksman: 14309 EHP | 38.24% Avoidance | 23168 EHPA

(Notes: Plate-majority gear. Before Berserker Stance / Recklessness / Death Wish.)
K40 | Warrior | 2H Fury : 13809 EHP | 28.29% Avoidance | 19256 EHPA
Naxx | Warrior | 2H Fury : 16283 EHP | 25.59% Avoidance | 21882 EHPA
K40 | Warrior | Arms : 13646 EHP | 28.4% Avoidance | 19058 EHPA
Naxx | Warrior | Arms : 16106 EHP | 25.7% Avoidance | 21676 EHPA

Sources:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... DBPDoM0-Ts
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... a1NnKXnG8o
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... MJ88vstDY8

I'll summarize the information for those who don't want to parse through it or might have trouble understanding: A difference of ~+20% dodge vs other Rogue specs is extraordinary. BiS Subtlety rogues already avoid more than half of the potential physical damage they could take. BiS Combat rogues nearly half that again with avoidance, and have more health and more armor. That equates to 81.7% more average survivability vs dodgeable attacks than other Rogue specs. 63.3% more than an equivalently geared BiS Survival Hunter. 118.7% more than a BiS geared plate-equipped Fury Warrior, before any of their penalties. That is astonishing.

I am not asking for any class to be made weak. I am asking that the people in control of the next iteration of the game be more careful about how power is allocated and allowed to compound. The goal should not be to make every class equal in every category. Please preserve the strengths that made each class distinct, but make sure those strengths come with real limitations, opportunity costs, or counterplay. That is the balance philosophy I hope the new team carries forward into OctoWoW.

Please do not let the same mistakes define the next chapter.

[Defiant]

I don't really see Rogues having more mitigation being an issue. They're a one trick pony. They do damage. They don't bring group buffs. They're always in melee. When they *don't* dodge they take a lot more damage than Warriors and a bit more damage than Hunters. Those Effective Health Pools you mention are a bit misleading to me. Because sure you can have have 90% dodge but you can still get hit on the first shot in some situations and a Rogue will be far more likely to die when they *do* get hit than a Warrior or Hunter. I do understand that many Warriors / Hunters will use Leather gear too, but in general they won't be as squishy.

I also think another factor to consider is that Warriors and Hunters have the option to swap specs out in a far more meaningful way than Rogues. There are going to be some fights where Hunters simply swap to ranged. There are going to be some fights where Warriors swap to a Tank oriented build. That's more meta level balance, raid composition balance, but as someone organizing groups the ability for Warriors and Hunters to be flexible like that is pretty huge. I feel that Rogues being less flexible, they should get *something* for that.

I also think Hunters having Feign on a 30s cooldown is relevant to these equations, but not factored in.

All of that said in general I agree with what you're saying. Especially this statement; "Please preserve the strengths that made each class distinct".

[Vsix]

I don't really see Rogues having more mitigation being an issue. They're a one trick pony. They do damage. They don't bring group buffs. They're always in melee. When they *don't* dodge they take a lot more damage than Warriors and a bit more damage than Hunters. Those Effective Health Pools you mention are a bit misleading to me. Because sure you can have have 90% dodge but you can still get hit on the first shot in some situations and a Rogue will be far more likely to die when they *do* get hit than a Warrior or Hunter. I do understand that many Warriors / Hunters will use Leather gear too, but in general they won't be as squishy.

I also think another factor to consider is that Warriors and Hunters have the option to swap specs out in a far more meaningful way than Rogues. There are going to be some fights where Hunters simply swap to ranged. There are going to be some fights where Warriors swap to a Tank oriented build. That's more meta level balance, raid composition balance, but as someone organizing groups the ability for Warriors and Hunters to be flexible like that is pretty huge. I feel that Rogues being less flexible, they should get *something* for that.

I also think Hunters having Feign on a 30s cooldown is relevant to these equations, but not factored in.

All of that said in general I agree with what you're saying. Especially this statement; "Please preserve the strengths that made each class distinct".

I think the points I'm making with EHP and EHPA could have been clearer. I'll try to expand on what the values I presented actually mean:

EHP = HP / (1 − armor damage reduction %)

The number that determines if getting punched in the face by a boss kills you or not. If a character has 10000 HP and takes 20% less physical damage from armor, they effectively require 12500 points of raw physical damage to kill. This value is what you get when you convert the extra 'health' you get when accounting for armor. This represents the case where the attack *isn't* dodged, as in your post.

EHPA = EHP / (1 − avoidance)

If a character has 12500 EHP and has a 50% chance to avoid the attack, it means that, on average, over a sufficiently large number of physical attacks where avoidance applies, the expected amount of incoming raw physical damage required to kill them is equivalent to roughly 25000. That does not mean the character literally has 25000 health, or that they are as durable as a 25000 HP tank when they are actually struck.

That's exactly why I included both numbers. The 12000 EHP shows that a DPS Rogue is relatively more fragile when an attack actually connects. The ~42000 EHPA shows how dramatically that fragility is offset by the enormous number of attacks that simply don't connect. EHP answers “how much raw physical damage can I take before I die?” EHPA answers “how much raw physical damage does it take, on average, to kill me when avoidance is included?”

The problem is the sheer scale of difference between classes, or even inter-class compared to Combat Rogue.

Like for like examples:

K40 | Rogue | Combat-Dagger : 12000 EHP | 71.5% Avoidance | 42105 EHPA
K40 | Rogue | Subtlety : 10787 EHP | 53.45% Avoidance | 23172 EHPA

Combat Rogue has 111.2% the EHP of Subtlety Rogue
Combat Rogue has 133.8% the Avoidance of Subtlety Rogue
Combat Rogue has 181.7% the EHPA of Subtlety Rogue

K40 | Rogue | Combat-Dagger : 12000 EHP | 71.5% Avoidance | 42105 EHPA
K40 | Warrior | 2H Fury : 13809 EHP | 28.29% Avoidance | 19256 EHPA

Fury Warrior has 115.0% the EHP of Combat Rogue
Combat Rogue has 252.7% the Avoidance of Fury Warrior
Combat Rogue has 218.7% the EHPA of Fury Warrior

Add Berserker Stance into the plate-equipped Warrior equation and their EHP lead shrinks down to 4.6%. A DPS Warrior who wears leather and not plate would actually have *less* raw EHP than the Rogue accounting for that, before Death Wish and Recklessness reduce it even further. The source I used for the Warrior data unfortunately uses a DPS-compromised equipment list. DPS Warriors fight in Berserker Stance - by the way - for anyone who isn't familiar with them.

Here's another way to look at this with some real boss damage examples:

Raid | Boss : Damage before armor -- This is exactly equivalent to calculated class EHP values from earlier.

K40 | Mephistroth : 10555 | 15832 crush | 21110 crit
K40 | Sanv Tas'dal : 8188 hit | *12282 crush* | 16376 crit
K40 | Keeper Gnarlmoon: 8273 hit | *12409 crush* | 16546 crit
Naxx | Patchwerk : 8923 hit | *13384 crush* | 17846 crit
Naxx | Instructor Razuvious : 22933 hit | 34399 crush | 45866 crit
AQ40 | Emperor Vek'nilash : 4368 hit | 6552 crush | 8736 crit
BWL | Broodlord Lashlayer : 4004 hit | 6006 crush | 8008 crit

Sources:
https://octowow.st/db/?npc=93333
https://octowow.st/db/?npc=59981
https://octowow.st/db/?npc=61939
https://octowow.st/db/?npc=16028
https://octowow.st/db/?npc=16061
https://octowow.st/db/?npc=15275
https://octowow.st/db/?npc=12017

I couldn't find many bosses in the game where the gap between a K40 Fury Warrior and a K40 Combat Rogue would allow the warrior to take an extra meaningful hit other than a few K40 bosses and Patchwerk on the Crushing Blows table (using the non-Berserker Stance plate Warrior values). I'm sure you could find more, but it seems they're rare, and I could find none at all on the normal hit table that could outright one-shot a BiS Rogue and not a Warrior. Bosses have a 15% chance to deal a Crushing Blow and a 5.6% chance to crit vs 300 Defense.

There is an important distinction here, however: Rogues can use Evasion or Flourish and Ghostly Strike to push themselves entirely off the Hit / Crit / Crush table. Evasion especially is a very minimal investment to continue dealing such impressive damage while at zero physical risk to themselves for the duration. Naxx raiders will likely remember Rogues solo-tanking Instructor Razuvious (a boss designed to be untankable by tanks) when half the raid dies and all DPS with higher threat than the rogue are dead. They may also just choose to... Vanish and let someone else eat the hit(s).

It would be quite convoluted to model the number of hits to kill. Maybe, I might set up a simple simulation for Patchwerk, a case where Crushing Blows comes into play, to see how that would play out on average. Could be interesting. Regardless, in the boss data I checked, there aren't many cases where the Warrior's additional EHP translates into being capable of surviving an additional melee hit. Most of the time the Rogue has a big enough EHP pool that the number of physical hits taken till death will be similar if not identical to Fury Warrior, before avoidance. The Rogue just passively avoids... 2.53x the number of hits.

As for your other concerns:

Yes, Warriors can tank, and more importantly have several good Taunt spells. Challenging Shout + Limited Invulnerability Potion is a powerful tool in PvE. That should be factored into their power allocation. But Rogues *do* bring more than just damage to the table, too. A Rogue of any spec can bring Expose Armor with the 1.18 talent changes. They also bring Distract (All raids), Disarm Trap (BWL), and Vanish pull strategies (ex. K40 Incantagos). Subtlety Rogue brings Hemorrhage (4% raid physical damage), Tricks of the Trade (4% party crit), Mark for Death (shares 30% of your AP to party), and a few other minor buffs.

The reason I specifically presented Hunter in my previous post is because they share the same 'evasive' niche as rogue, yet have the lowest Dodge scaling in the game. Blizzard foresaw precisely this problem 22+ years ago and guarded the Agility scaling of the class that stacked Agility in Vanilla. Also, Hunters have Feign Death, but rogues have Vanish. Feign Death has a shorter cooldown, but you're very unlikely to use either more than once in the same fight. Feign Death's cooldown starts when you stand up. Both temporarily drop threat - a Hunter will regain their position on the threat table when they move, and a Rogue will regain their threat when they leave stealth.

There's one more thing that I think should be pointed out: you said "When they *don't* dodge they take a lot more damage than Warriors and a bit more damage than Hunters." Hunters actually have significantly more EHP than Fury Warriors. Adding Elixir of Superior Defense and Gordok Green Grog to the Hunter's consumes in the source I provided would even allow a Marksman Hunter to survive a Crushing Blow from Mephistroth.

K40 | Hunter | Marksman : 15153 EHP | 40.15% Avoidance | 25318 EHPA
K40 | Hunter | Survival : 14559 EHP | 43.55% Avoidance | 25790 EHPA
K40 | Warrior | 2H Fury : 13809 EHP | 28.29% Avoidance | 19256 EHPA
K40 | Rogue | Combat-Dagger : 12000 EHP | 71.5% Avoidance | 42105 EHPA

My intention was to make a dev-facing post, so I may have been a little lighter on the details than maybe I should have been for community dialogue. I didn't want to end up writing a 10,000 word balance manifesto. Hopefully this clarifies what I was trying to show with the EHP/EHPA figures.

[Berdal]

This guy fucks.

[Zvyrhol]

Ok. But do Rogues even tank in raids? What impact does this balance have on the game practically?
I'm no melee player and honestly I don't understand what exactly OP wanted to suggest here.

[Vsix]

Ok. But do Rogues even tank in raids? What impact does this balance have on the game practically?
I'm no melee player and honestly I don't understand what exactly OP wanted to suggest here.

There are a few examples in my original post and reply to Defiant of how this practically affects game balance.

At the highest levels of play when RNG is perfectly in your favor and nobody ever makes mistakes, EHP / EHPA shouldn't matter much for DPS. Unfortunately, reality is sloppy. They do matter. The practical effect this has on gameplay should be evident from experience to Naxx / K40 raiders.

I've seen Rogues tank Instructor Razuvious again and again from ~80% HP, single-handedly and dramatically saving doomed attempts with the exact avoidance mechanics I've been talking about. Sapphiron from ~50%. Solnius from full to zero, you don't even *need* evasion on a lot of fights. Any boss that can have their damage mitigated by avoidance can be *guaranteed* to have a wipe extended by at least 22 seconds per Combat Rogue using their toolkits. Plenty of time to leisurely battle-res a tank and re-buff them mid-fight, or just kill the boss outright with a few rogues. A third of the raid is dead when the Rogue gets threat, but it doesn't matter. The boss still dies.

So to answer your question directly: Yeah, Rogues do tank in raids. When things go wrong. They're pretty good at it.

The Rogue doesn't even have to commit to tanking. They just have to choose to press Evasion instead of Vanish and stay in the fight, keep doing damage, and temporarily become unhittable rather than simply escaping the encounter. They can Vanish later, after holding the boss, at no risk.

The broader point I'm making is that Rogue is just the example, not the conclusion. The real concern is what happens when *any* build can accumulate several powerful advantages without having to meaningfully choose between them. Combat Rogue isn't the only build in the game worthy of examination. I'm asking the devs to look for these interactions before they become entrenched.