Boosting Rule Adjustments

[Beckett]

I agree its extremely silly, but one small rule change spawned this because people want to boost. The change was aimed at those who boost and want to boost. Specifically those that were abusing the group drop exploit to boost much faster than turtle intended. I think the rest of this post answers your questions if you take the time to read but I know it is a long long thread at this point.

From what I gather, people using boosting to level up too fast was the issue.

The act of boosting at its core, is an attempt to speed past or skip large swaths of content in order to have access to more resources, or more ways to play the end game content.

Other things, like having to level your characters to 60, we feel are such a core part of this game, and that they need to be actively protected and fostered.

These seem to be the key points in your original post, and again, to us, it just reads like the other arguments people on your side have given us, mainly that the "journey from 1-60" is sacrosanct. There are a few problems I think that are coupled with this stance.

1. This definition of what the "journey" is seems completely up to each individual's interpretation. I had a blast quest leveling from 1-60 and exploring Azeroth for the first time... twenty years ago... For me now, my journey is building a network of alts to maintain myself and others is much more fun than leveling up my single John Targaryen main character once and maybe a lasher farmer to sustain them.

2. There are other ways to powerlevel besides tag boosting which are arguably more harmful for the server. As of right now, everyone can just sit in the Goldshire Inn with warmode on and level up through BGs, and on active times they will be blowing through levels faster than a tag booster while never actually going into the outside world, grinding mobs/farmables and posting them on the AH, basically teleporting from 1-60 while having next to zero interaction with anyone besides the players they're pvping.

3. The idea that tag boosters are interfering with people's leveling experience... I'd almost agree, but you rolled back the rule while also "patching" the dungeons which is pretty short-sighted, since now tag boosters are forced to compete in the open world. Basically, if that was what caused the loud minority (heh) of anti-boosters, they're in a worse off spot than before.

A tag booster is still, usually, looting mobs and putting BOEs/cloth/enchanting mats into the economy. Moreso even, because they're actually going through low and mid level zones and acquiring those items, which typically on non-boosting servers these items start ballooning in price as less and less people pass through these zones and the majority of the active playerbase is level 60 John Targaryens who don't want to do the journey they cherish so much again.

tl;dr TWOW had a pretty stable economy for most of its run. If it isn't broke...

[Hepallzx12]

I like the idea of opt in 2x xp on the current pve server ONLY AFTER you’ve level a character to 60 on the same account. Something you need to select at character creation.

That or revert the instance boosting method.

You as the server owner have the opportunity to call that an intended mechanic. You are saying it’s an exploit but it’s only an exploit because YOU are saying it is unintended.

Many people here want a way to level alts faster after they’ve gotten to 60 the first time. Please let us do so

[Kestrel]

Here's a comparison: when I was a kid, I had the game Final Fantasy Tactics on the PS1. Loved that game, but grinding for job points to unlock all the jobs and their abilities was a tedious, repetitive experience, similar to leveling in classic wow, and it made replaying the game to try different team combinations significantly less appealing because it would take more time to get the job points than I would get time enjoying/testing any given build. There was an error in the game code that allowed you to speed this process up by getting infinite job points on certain jobs, that could be used to unlock some of the grindier abilities.

This single feature enabled me to replay the game 100s of times as opposed to just 5 or 10. This also didn't make the game any worse for anyone who wanted to experience the "intended grind experience".

On Twow, classic wow, and many other classic mmos, we boosted alts and friends so they could catch up to us or have alts to craft on, and the economy was fine and the community was great. I just don't see how this change is good for the community, it feels more like a philosophical difference, that, once enforced, is just pissing people off who otherwise would game here while having almost 0 negative impact on anything on the server. This change is selfish, and doesn't respect our time as players.

I do think this is a great illustration of that perspective and a very valid one. I just don't think that a 1x server sounds like what you are looking for though in that case. Perhaps the real desire here is for a 4th server (way down the line after enough growth has happened) that is a bit more free/exploratory with higher exp rates and lower CD's on crafting and stuff like that. Not sure if that registers as along the same lines or not?

I think I need to clarify that many of us replying are from the PvP server — I recognize many names — and even speaking for the PvE players, I'd say most of us were probably fine with things as they were before these "rule changes" which is why so much pushback came through.

The x2 xp on Tel'Abim was to prevent people who spent very little time sleeping from acquiring too much and too long of a level advantage, because they can and will prevent you from accessing certain zones by ganking and camping.
Dungeons become the only safe parts of the map and leveling fast evens the playing field rapidly.
Player time differs widly and don't forget that as dedicated as much of the player base is... it's one of the oldest on average in the gaming world and that changes many things.

Allowing players to reach lvl 60 faster was also so they could enjoy the balance as intended instead of having to deal with... rogues for example —who are arguably from instant attacks and early access to core cooldown skills, the strongest PvP class and the strongest PvE dps until much later levels— for most classes, the real game starts much later and aren't viable until then.
It also helped to catch up with the PvE server without having delayed releases or updates which is exactly what's wanted from competitive players and PvP players are that by nature.


No one so far has asked for lower cooldowns or even that the xp rates be x2 for the PvP like Tel'Abim.
Although I'm pretty certain a lot of people would take that, because for PvPers there's only increasing issues from being sub 60 for long, moreso when gear starts to be a deciding factor.

Overall, it's the communication or lack of, that people have complained about, especially regarding existing mechanics. I'm sure you'll find people very open once you introduce entirely new things.

On the topic of previous fuck ups and communication, I was alluding to the whole PvE/HC to PvP transfer mess. Just from players I know and talk to daily, there's over a dozen who leveled to 60 what they thought would be an "alt" that they could transfer later. We had multiple confirmations from different GM's that it would be possible which is why people did it and were ready for conditions like no gold or even naked.
So... when that didn't happen people were pissed but most took it on the chin as many of their friends and guildmates were only going to join the PvP server anyways. But... when you added the rule changes to summoning/multiboxing and boosting/mob tagging rule changes on top of that already lost and disrespected time, you can understand how many players felt.

Except basket cases, no one is expecting handouts and I don't think many players would be willing to play on a server with insanely low cooldowns — part of the game is the grind — we still appreciate delayed gratification and setting longtime goals, or we'd be playing another game.

For many of us these characters aren't our mains; they're our 50th rerolls since 2004 and mobtag/boosting has always been a core mechanic to alleviate what would otherwise be exhausting.

Either way thank you for taking the time to answer, Kestrel.

I totally get that and don't doubt it to be true. And perhaps the solution there is an EXP event for the PvP server which is an idea we have tossed around internally as a compromise on the 1x exp rates there. The thing is we have our sights set on 3+ years down the line and in the grand scheme of things, in 3 years on the PvP server the situation will still be that high level toons are able to run free farming lower level's and interrupting their leveling. We just don't think the solution is to let people hide away in dungeons, it is a PvP server after all.

I think that you are right, the real thing that will make or break the PvP server though is new PvP content. That is something we are excited about and hope will lead to it being a bit more balanced than Tel'Abim was at times. Keep in mind, most of the content we have in mind will not be PvP realm exclusive, only the events will be, but the allur of the PvP realm's focus should be what brings players over I'd imagine.

I also agree that communication was the core of the issue here and our main failing. With things changing so rapidly and the server still (to an extent) still figuring out its direction, communication is a bit more difficult.

I also agree that was an issue in communication we faced early on. The initial community feedback from players in the very early days of the server was that nobody was against transferring to PvP. Of course hindsight 20/20, that was because everyone who had a voice was already on the server! Additionally our initial acceptance of that was taken as written in stone by some both internal and externally so we clearly did not communicate it well.

I am glad you also feel the long term goal setting and "grind" is part of the game. It is our (perhaps neive) hope that this is the last server that many of you will play on though. We don't have plans to go anywhere and our core selling point is that very fact. So while yes, this may be many people's 50th+ re-roll sense 2004, we hope it is also many people's last re-roll and that the characters you make will grow to be you true Mains in all senses of the word.

And of course, thank you for taking the time to post <3

[Kestrel]

I agree its extremely silly, but one small rule change spawned this because people want to boost. The change was aimed at those who boost and want to boost. Specifically those that were abusing the group drop exploit to boost much faster than turtle intended. I think the rest of this post answers your questions if you take the time to read but I know it is a long long thread at this point.

From what I gather, people using boosting to level up too fast was the issue.

The act of boosting at its core, is an attempt to speed past or skip large swaths of content in order to have access to more resources, or more ways to play the end game content.

Other things, like having to level your characters to 60, we feel are such a core part of this game, and that they need to be actively protected and fostered.

These seem to be the key points in your original post, and again, to us, it just reads like the other arguments people on your side have given us, mainly that the "journey from 1-60" is sacrosanct. There are a few problems I think that are coupled with this stance.

1. This definition of what the "journey" is seems completely up to each individual's interpretation. I had a blast quest leveling from 1-60 and exploring Azeroth for the first time... twenty years ago... For me now, my journey is building a network of alts to maintain myself and others is much more fun than leveling up my single John Targaryen main character once and maybe a lasher farmer to sustain them.

2. There are other ways to powerlevel besides tag boosting which are arguably more harmful for the server. As of right now, everyone can just sit in the Goldshire Inn with warmode on and level up through BGs, and on active times they will be blowing through levels faster than a tag booster while never actually going into the outside world, grinding mobs/farmables and posting them on the AH, basically teleporting from 1-60 while having next to zero interaction with anyone besides the players they're pvping.

3. The idea that tag boosters are interfering with people's leveling experience... I'd almost agree, but you rolled back the rule while also "patching" the dungeons which is pretty short-sighted, since now tag boosters are forced to compete in the open world. Basically, if that was what caused the loud minority (heh) of anti-boosters, they're in a worse off spot than before.

A tag booster is still, usually, looting mobs and putting BOEs/cloth/enchanting mats into the economy. Moreso even, because they're actually going through low and mid level zones and acquiring those items, which typically on non-boosting servers these items start ballooning in price as less and less people pass through these zones and the majority of the active playerbase is level 60 John Targaryens who don't want to do the journey they cherish so much again.

tl;dr TWOW had a pretty stable economy for most of its run. If it isn't broke...

The core of the issue that initiated this change was not the speed of leveling, it was the method. Dropping group to cheese/funnel EXP to a character feels like an exploit to our development team and decision makers. The initial stance we took to ban boosting in all forms did include mention of "speeding past" or "skipping" content, that should not read as "too fast".

I just can't help but read your response here and wonder "why play here at all"? I understand that turtle wow has some amazing custom content, but if you don't want to level to 60 at all then why not spin up a local server or find a place that offers the experience of going to the part you enjoy, the end game?

I don't disagree with you that there are potential issues with spam queuing BGs all the way to 60 but it is engaging in content with players in an MMO. I would argue that it is a bit less cut and dry though than the group dropping EXP exploit.

That very well may happen with boosters migrating en mass to the open world. Maybe that causes more issues that need to be addressed through other mechanic changes down the line. The lessons that we learned here are that things that affect the "optimal" way to level are highly contentious even if not many are using them actively, and that contentious changes to rules/systems should not be handled through GM moderation even if it would save developers time.

It feels like the lesson that you want us to learn is "make level 60 easier/faster" though and that is just not something that we feel fits either Turtle WoW's ethos, or more importantly our own.

[Kestrel]

I like the idea of opt in 2x xp on the current pve server ONLY AFTER you’ve level a character to 60 on the same account. Something you need to select at character creation.

That or revert the instance boosting method.

You as the server owner have the opportunity to call that an intended mechanic. You are saying it’s an exploit but it’s only an exploit because YOU are saying it is unintended.

Many people here want a way to level alts faster after they’ve gotten to 60 the first time. Please let us do so

And that is something we would be more open to than to encourage this type of dungeon boosting. Perhaps a suggestion in the https://octowow.st/forum/viewforum.php?f=3 section would be a good place to discus and get consensus.

We can agree to disagree on why dropping group to manipulate EXP distribution is objectively an exploit.

[Lemurcatta]

Fairly sure I'm on the server's only active Discord server, and I've never seen the poll that some people claim to have a 80/20 in favor of boosting or anything of the sort. Next time please post it somewhere people see it and can participate. I can't vote in a poll I've never heard to exist.

[Computer]

Now to the compromise. What are your thoughts on removing or at least lowering the cap on reaching max professions? To say it's currently level 35 but what if we could lower it to at least level 20.

I think this is a good idea , 20-25 to have proff alts would be fucking amazing. Devs please consider this change or OP please make a separate thread cause you have my vote !

[Holydruid]

Fairly sure I'm on the server's only active Discord server, and I've never seen the poll that some people claim to have a 80/20 in favor of boosting or anything of the sort. Next time please post it somewhere people see it and can participate. I can't vote in a poll I've never heard to exist.

There is no official discord, thats a fan discord only. Its all on the forum. As discord is an American company, so if devs will set 1 up, they would be easy touchable by Blizzard

[Brighteous]

Hi! EARTHBOLT Founder of Leveling guilds Watership Down and LAPUA founder of Thunderclan Warriors. Both highly successful and large active communities still playing on multiple servers to this day.

Leveling guilds have always been highly active. The point of them is to recruit a pool of players allowing people to find players around their level to group with. Now do boosts occur? Of course they do and always have. Do people generally boost levelers from 1-60 in leveling guilds: NO. That's what the small guilds do. =] you small guilders know that you boost your alts to lvl 35 in a day. It's you. And I wouldn't be surprised if the bulk of leveling services came from these smaller guilds as well.

Being a 60 in this game's ethos has meaning. When you inspect a player you assume they have gone through all the same hardships as everyone else.

I think OctoWoW is 100% correct. Get rid of all dungeon boosting and AOE farm boosting. It takes away from the community when Naxx is out and new players show up, but all they see in their leveling zones are lvl 60's with a lvl 12 alt on follow. This is not how we want to see the game played. It's another reason why people are asking for Fresh Servers all the time, because while leveling, they have no one to play with since all the veterans are boosting themselves and their mates.

I like the new rule a lot. It's consistent with TWoW/OctoWoW Values: Level slow and steady, take your time, enjoy the game for what it is- it's a grind. Deal with it and groan all you want. I am down with these changes and the forbiddenness of lvl60 boosting in general. BRING IT ON! ENFORCE IT!

[Yotca]

Hi! EARTHBOLT Founder of Leveling guilds Watership Down and LAPUA founder of Thunderclan Warriors. Both highly successful and large active communities still playing on multiple servers to this day.

Leveling guilds have always been highly active. The point of them is to recruit a pool of players allowing people to find players around their level to group with. Now do boosts occur? Of course they do and always have. Do people generally boost levelers from 1-60 in leveling guilds: NO. That's what the small guilds do. =] you small guilders know that you boost your alts to lvl 35 in a day. It's you. And I wouldn't be surprised if the bulk of leveling services came from these smaller guilds as well.

Being a 60 in this game's ethos has meaning. When you inspect a player you assume they have gone through all the same hardships as everyone else.

I think OctoWoW is 100% correct. Get rid of all dungeon boosting and AOE farm boosting. It takes away from the community when Naxx is out and new players show up, but all they see in their leveling zones are lvl 60's with a lvl 12 alt on follow. This is not how we want to see the game played. It's another reason why people are asking for Fresh Servers all the time, because while leveling, they have no one to play with since all the veterans are boosting themselves and their mates.

I like the new rule a lot. It's consistent with TWoW/OctoWoW Values: Level slow and steady, take your time, enjoy the game for what it is- it's a grind. Deal with it and groan all you want. I am down with these changes and the forbiddenness of lvl60 boosting in general. BRING IT ON! ENFORCE IT!

Why is every "anti-booster" so disconnected from reality and unhinged.
Once again you're accusing guilds that have much better things to do and who have gone through far more hardships than you ever will — of boosting or using RMT services — we produce our own mats and we need the ressources we generate because that's how we raid; Naxxramas average raid composition for t3 gear for 40 people (excluding t3.5) will cost 500 arcanites, 300 mooncloths and 300 rugged hides. Multiply that by extra tanks, extra healers, people with multiple alts, returners etc and then by t3.5 gear all over again.

If you don't understand it means you've never reached that level, which once again, means you have no voice to the chapter.

The game is meant to be massive raids done by large guilds— you're the very small guild — both in members and level 60's ; most raid guilds are larger than you are by a lot and we go through far more raiding hardships than your so-called "hardships from leveling" which are moot and that we've gone through often and on more characters than you probably have.

Keep being accusatory when it's obvious you're so removed from the actual game that you are not an actual part of this community — us larger (yes we're larger more geared and more 60's) guilds that raid and clear content interact with multiple guilds our size for various reasons on a guild to guild level. Think PvP events — that's us. Think large capital raids — that's us. Think grouping 5-6 guilds to go on father Lycan — that's us.

You are not the community. If anything you're the people the least part of it and that don't understand the actual spirit of the game, which is getting players together do large events.

If you knew anything about larger guilds you'd know most of us hate paid shortcuts and are probably the most vocal against RMT.
Leveling our alts is to make raids possible because these servers don't have 10,000-20,000 concurrent players like the active classic servers do. Vanilla servers had 2,000-3,000 concurrent at best to give you an idea, and guild factory alts were a near obligation, simply because it was cheaper to level an alt to 35 and level the professions than to pay 150-200g per arcanite/mooncloth/rugged..
Here on Octo we have 1/5 of that on the best days on the PvE server and 1/10th on the PvP server.
I have faith the numbers will increase eventually and reach Twow numbers or higher, but you're still gravely misunderstanding how the raiding and overall economy functions.


You might have the time to leisurely grind multiple characters to 60 because you're not raiding and might be unemployed ; my time on the game is spent raiding so the few weekends I get outside of that are for leveling alts so I don't have to spend that time farming gold to buy materials.

Overall, I think the issue is that you people really just aren't efficient and become jealous of people who actually put in the required effort.
Else you wouldn't be so accusatory of larger guilds. Your members come and leave... ours build lasting relationships and our guilds are a home we share together

If anything removing the ability to boost alts will lead to RMT not the opposite.