Towards the End

[Octosaur]

This is good feedback, take notes guys. Wanting to play the game and experience everything it offers is a illness now, I’ll be sure to ask my doctor about that.

The situation is simple:
• There are 5–6 relevant raids.
• They’re all on 1-week lockouts.

That combination creates a very clear incentive structure: if you want to raid you end up raiding a lot of nights. Not because you’re a raidbot or have no life, but because the design itself turns “doing the content” into a weekly checklist of multiple instances.

Suggesting “just don’t do all of them” is basically saying “just don’t play a big part of the game.” That’s not a real solution; it’s just accepting that the design has outpaced the lockout system.

The proposal (longer lockout + more loot) is just one possible way to decouple “experiencing the content” from “having to treat raiding like a second job.”

When the volume of relevant raids exceeds what a normal adult schedule can reasonably clear every week without feeling like work, the lockout timer becomes the problem, not the player’s attitude.

Some of us want to clear everything without becoming a robot. Some of us have jobs, families, and other hobbies and still want to see Naxx and Kara and Timbermaw instead of picking two and permanently missing out. That desire doesn’t make us ill. It makes us players who like the game’s content.

You can keep the hardcore option for people who want to full-clear every lockout. Just don’t make “full experience” require that level of commitment by default.

You’re right we’re not 14 that’s exactly why the game should stop acting like we still have that kind of free time. Sidenote I’m typing this from my place of employment, that’s why I’m on the forum and not in game.

It is literally an illness. It's called FOMO. There is actually no strict requirement to raid every night of the week, that is something being socially imposed onto you either by your own obsession or by others via social pressure. The game hasn't turned into a weekly checklist, you have TURNED IT into a checklist because of your desire to do all of the things within the week which is unsustainable and in no way the intended method of playing the game.

And you know what... maybe... "Just don't play a big part of the game."? Are you also levelling 9 characters to 60 every week or are you just playing that content when it's relevant to you? Picking the parts of the game you want to do most.

Doubling the lockout is only a suggestion that makes it so that people with your specific problem can do all of the things within a cycle without having to make decisions for themselves about what to do/skip. For people only progressing one or maybe two raids at a time it just means they have to wait twice as long before they can do the content they want to do again.

I'm sorry that you want to clear everything without becoming a robot but as content is added to the game more and more of it is going to become impossible to fit into a healthy schedule. You don't have to do every raid every week. It's okay to just do what you have time to do. The game doesn't need to change.

Also, telling me the reason why you're in the forums and not playing the game is because it is physically impossible for you to be in the game doesn't make it sound LESS like you have an unhealthy relationship with the game.

[Atriana]

This is good feedback, take notes guys. Wanting to play the game and experience everything it offers is a illness now, I’ll be sure to ask my doctor about that.

The situation is simple:
• There are 5–6 relevant raids.
• They’re all on 1-week lockouts.

That combination creates a very clear incentive structure: if you want to raid you end up raiding a lot of nights. Not because you’re a raidbot or have no life, but because the design itself turns “doing the content” into a weekly checklist of multiple instances.

Suggesting “just don’t do all of them” is basically saying “just don’t play a big part of the game.” That’s not a real solution; it’s just accepting that the design has outpaced the lockout system.

The proposal (longer lockout + more loot) is just one possible way to decouple “experiencing the content” from “having to treat raiding like a second job.”

When the volume of relevant raids exceeds what a normal adult schedule can reasonably clear every week without feeling like work, the lockout timer becomes the problem, not the player’s attitude.

Some of us want to clear everything without becoming a robot. Some of us have jobs, families, and other hobbies and still want to see Naxx and Kara and Timbermaw instead of picking two and permanently missing out. That desire doesn’t make us ill. It makes us players who like the game’s content.

You can keep the hardcore option for people who want to full-clear every lockout. Just don’t make “full experience” require that level of commitment by default.

You’re right we’re not 14 that’s exactly why the game should stop acting like we still have that kind of free time. Sidenote I’m typing this from my place of employment, that’s why I’m on the forum and not in game.

It is literally an illness. It's called FOMO. There is actually no strict requirement to raid every night of the week, that is something being socially imposed onto you either by your own obsession or by others via social pressure. The game hasn't turned into a weekly checklist, you have TURNED IT into a checklist because of your desire to do all of the things within the week which is unsustainable and in no way the intended method of playing the game.

And you know what... maybe... "Just don't play a big part of the game."? Are you also levelling 9 characters to 60 every week or are you just playing that content when it's relevant to you? Picking the parts of the game you want to do most.

Doubling the lockout is only a suggestion that makes it so that people with your specific problem can do all of the things within a cycle without having to make decisions for themselves about what to do/skip. For people only progressing one or maybe two raids at a time it just means they have to wait twice as long before they can do the content they want to do again.

I'm sorry that you want to clear everything without becoming a robot but as content is added to the game more and more of it is going to become impossible to fit into a healthy schedule. You don't have to do every raid every week. It's okay to just do what you have time to do. The game doesn't need to change.

Also, telling me the reason why you're in the forums and not playing the game is because it is physically impossible for you to be in the game doesn't make it sound LESS like you have an unhealthy relationship with the game.

Okay I'll admit I'm super ill and so addicted i can't think about anything else it's driving me insane. now that that's out of the way.

The problem remains the system itself: 5–6 relevant raids all sitting on 1-week lockouts at the same time. That setup inherently turns “experiencing the current content” into a heavy weekly commitment for anyone who wants to engage with most of what the server has to offer. It’s not about obsession; it’s math. The volume of raids has outgrown the lockout timer.

please address the issue and not my mental health doctor. Also I was full bis for months and still ran MC with my guild what exactly am I FOMOing about? Could I be I enjoy playing the game, could it be we all enjoy playing the game that's why we're here isn't it?

[Shaksa]

I know I'm going to get mad hate... but towards the end of Turtle wow it felt like there were way too many raids to cram into 1 week. MC/BWL/AQ40/Naxx/K40 then Timbermaw...

thoughts on doubling the loot and putting them on a 2 week lockout? I know it sounds crazy at first but raiding 4-5 nights a week is pretty terrible. Think about it. we were doing MC/BWL/AQ40 on night, Naxx one night, K40 another night and Timbermaw progression another night. We had all the raids well under an hour but still it's a lot. Now imagine you can do 2-3 raids one week, and another raid and progression the next and you don't miss any loot or lockouts... NICE!

If raiding 4-5 nights a week is pretty terrible, then why do you do it?

Raiding 4-5 nights a week is fine, finding time to farm consumes, playing with low level characters, playing alts and, and all the other stuff in the game while keeping your raid spot is terrible.. you know it, i know it, everybody knows it.

Well I ask again, if it's terrible to do all those things, why would you do them?
Surely there are guilds out there that do less raiding and/or require less consumes? (or whatever criterion that let's you spend less time on the game, or play in a way that feels good and not terrible)

If that is not an option, why do you feel compelled to do everything?

Should players with limited play time be expected to do everything each week? If so, what is "limited play time" and who decides that?

What do you think should happen when even more raids are introduced? What if the game eventually has 10 raids? 15 raids? 20 raids? Should lockout time be proportional to the number of end game raids?

[Atriana]

If raiding 4-5 nights a week is pretty terrible, then why do you do it?

Raiding 4-5 nights a week is fine, finding time to farm consumes, playing with low level characters, playing alts and, and all the other stuff in the game while keeping your raid spot is terrible.. you know it, i know it, everybody knows it.

Well I ask again, if it's terrible to do all those things, why would you do them?
Surely there are guilds out there that do less raiding and/or require less consumes? (or whatever criterion that let's you spend less time on the game, or play in a way that feels good and not terrible)

If that is not an option, why do you feel compelled to do everything?

Should players with limited play time be expected to do everything each week? If so, what is "limited play time" and who decides that?

What do you think should happen when even more raids are introduced? What if the game eventually has 10 raids? 15 raids? 20 raids? Should lockout time be proportional to the number of end game raids?

I'm so glad you brought up more raids because I was about to do the same.. you think 20 raids can be finished in a single week and it's perfectly normal to do that? Oh and by the way, yes.. yes lockouts should match the number of raids... do you not raid?

[Atriana]

I took this thread over to grok and asked him about 10 raids 1-2 hours each and here's a table he created do with it what you will. Also you cannot skip raids, there's 40 people and everyone wants different items from different raids, you start skipping them and people are going to raid elsewhere, it is what it is.

[Crimsonclaws]

Do us all a favor...if your like Atriana here, just leave please! Please just leave! We don't want you here! Seek immediate psychological help!

[Octosaur]

I took this thread over to grok and asked him about 10 raids 1-2 hours each and here's a table he created do with it what you will. Also you cannot skip raids, there's 40 people and everyone wants different items from different raids, you start skipping them and people are going to raid elsewhere, it is what it is.

[Atriana]

Do us all a favor...if your like Atriana here, just leave please! Please just leave! We don't want you here! Seek immediate psychological help!

Wow making a suggestion on the suggestions forum is NOT ALLOWED! Is this game only allowed to have players who like to play hard core and if they die they start over? Is this game not allowed to have people who like to raid? Have you never been in a end game raiding guild?

lets take Nefs Tear for example... This item is BIS for a lot of classes even in K40 are we supposed to just skip BWL because there's not enough time in the week anymore? Is that your solution for a raid team? Are we for reals right now.. Also please address the suggestion and not the way I choose to play the game, this isn't reddit.

https://octowow.st/db/?item=19379

[Octosaur]

Do us all a favor...if your like Atriana here, just leave please! Please just leave! We don't want you here! Seek immediate psychological help!

Wow making a suggestion on the suggestions forum is NOT ALLOWED! Is this game only allowed to have players who like to play hard core and if they die they start over? Is this game not allowed to have people who like to raid? Have you never been in a end game raiding guild?

lets take Nefs Tear for example... This item is BIS for a lot of classes even in K40 are we supposed to just skip BWL because there's not enough time in the week anymore? Is that your solution for a raid team? Are we for reals right now.. Also please address the suggestion and not the way I choose to play the game, this isn't reddit.

https://octowow.st/db/?item=19379

Idk man maybe you don't need BIS so badly that you gotta destroy yourself to get it?
Or maybe you could argue that the itemisation should be reviewed so BIS items aren't so spread around?
There's a lot of solutions that don't revolve around doubling the lockout timer and acting like it's in any way normal to be this self-destructively obsessive about raiding. Maybe you're just not cut out to have BIS immediately anymore because you're not Him and you should accept your changing circumstances?

But losing your gourd publicly like this isn't healthy either, bro. You should take a step back and a deep breath 'cus this isn't helping you.

[Aubreykun]

I think Atriana has something of a point.

Consider this: Every MMO is "finite" but dresses up like it's "infinite." There is always a point where a server is shut off, content is radically altered, etc. and so on. This isn't ever planned, and it could be many years, but in hindsight you can count exactly how many raid lockouts were possible, how many darkmoon faires you could experience, how many Winter Veils and so on.

This creates a bit of a problem: The game itself has something of a FOMO built into it. You are limited on the number of times you can ever chance at a boss drop. It's good design to make it so that this doesn't get to the point of what I've seen described as "the game not respecting the player's time." This is made especially important by the length of time raids take, the need to schedule them, and how for the longest time many guilds have tied loot opportunities to participation within ALL AND ANY raids. It's not the devs' job to handle how guilds decide to distribute loot, just that it is a thing that (for better or worse) can be disrupted and cause some level of discontent among the playerbase.

Maybe Atriana's direct solution to this - double loot, and 2 week lockout - isn't really functional. But it is a concern that should be monitored by the devs as the raid progression is rolled out, and then examined before any and each new raid is added later down the pipeline. I don't have any proposal myself, just pointing out that this does have some merit as a valid concern, from a designer's perspective.

Of course, if someone as an individual is having their life disrupted by "too many raids", then plenty of the other responses still apply. (And I'll just add at the end here: If you are getting stressed and feel pressure to not take time for yourself already, you are in a guild that doesn't actually raid at a good time for you and you are "forcing it to work" when it really doesn't, or possibly your guild uses a loot system that makes you feel punished for taking care of yourself first. There is no shame in leaving a guild if it's mechanically not good for you despite enjoying their company.)