PVP items unavailable on PVP server?

[Crackadia]

The remaining Epic quality PvP gear outclasses all PvE content at the moment and thus is restricted until later phases. Releasing all of this gear now would trivialize PvE content.

Is this really going to be a turtle 2.0 with how you're always going to put the PVP server at the shit end of the stick?
There's a bunch of us playing there that don't really care about -already trivial- pve content. We literally clear raids to get 1-2 items that we use in PVP like some trinkets here and there.

The way I see it, right now all the strongest characters on the pvp server are the ones in MC/ony gear so why would I bother playing it and PVPing at all?

Thanks for the reply.

[Dzielkus]

PVP items should never be BiS in PVE. This may be a hard pill for some.

This is tricky, cause in general PvP items lack hit rating which is quite important for PvE for most classes/builds - unless you may get most of % hit needed from talents itself (or skill weapon "quests").
I see here some space for changes.

[Kestrel]

Is this really going to be a turtle 2.0 with how you're always going to put the PVP server at the shit end of the stick?
There's a bunch of us playing there that don't really care about -already trivial- pve content. We literally clear raids to get 1-2 items that we use in PVP like some trinkets here and there.

The way I see it, right now all the strongest characters on the pvp server are the ones in MC/ony gear so why would I bother playing it and PVPing at all?

Thanks for the reply.

We want to drive PvP engagement not through artificially strong rewards, but through content. Of course the server is new and we have been primarily focused on restoration so that has yet to happen but I am hopeful that strategy will work.

Personally I do feel that the PvP rewards should be (generally not always) the strongest gear for PvP, and we hope to make that a reality at some point, but the answer is not to make PvP rewards required for high end PvE content either.

[Defiant]

The remaining Epic quality PvP gear outclasses all PvE content at the moment and thus is restricted until later phases. Releasing all of this gear now would trivialize PvE content.

Is this really going to be a turtle 2.0 with how you're always going to put the PVP server at the shit end of the stick?
There's a bunch of us playing there that don't really care about -already trivial- pve content. We literally clear raids to get 1-2 items that we use in PVP like some trinkets here and there.

The way I see it, right now all the strongest characters on the pvp server are the ones in MC/ony gear so why would I bother playing it and PVPing at all?

Thanks for the reply.

Yes that is Vanilla PVP, you should probably familiarize yourself with it before joining a Vanilla PVP server. PVE gear is extremely relevant and was extremely relevant on TelAbim even with the new PVP sets that were clearly going to be released with a progression system. I have no idea why anyone would assume that a progression server would get Naxx grade sets in the first month of their release.

And stop saying "we". There are absolutely people on the PVP server who take the PVE side of things seriously. Why are so many PVP players so obnoxiously self absorbed like this...

Edit: Look guys, this is a Vanilla expansion of WoW designed to respect the spirit of vanilla WoW. Vanilla WoW absolutely and unequivocally placed PVE progress as a major factor in PVP success. You want a system that spits in the face of the spirit of Vanilla PVP. Its that simple. Turtle added content for PVP and enabled a route to PVP gearing but I dont think they ever intended it to be completely isolated from PVE. Again, the "spirit of vanilla" is a key factor here.

[Crackadia]

The remaining Epic quality PvP gear outclasses all PvE content at the moment and thus is restricted until later phases. Releasing all of this gear now would trivialize PvE content.

Is this really going to be a turtle 2.0 with how you're always going to put the PVP server at the shit end of the stick?
There's a bunch of us playing there that don't really care about -already trivial- pve content. We literally clear raids to get 1-2 items that we use in PVP like some trinkets here and there.

The way I see it, right now all the strongest characters on the pvp server are the ones in MC/ony gear so why would I bother playing it and PVPing at all?

Thanks for the reply.

Yes that is Vanilla PVP, you should probably familiarize yourself with it before joining a Vanilla PVP server. PVE gear is extremely relevant and was extremely relevant on TelAbim even with the new PVP sets that were clearly going to be released with a progression system. I have no idea why anyone would assume that a progression server would get Naxx grade sets in the first month of their release.

And stop saying "we". There are absolutely people on the PVP server who take the PVE side of things seriously. Why are so many PVP players so obnoxiously self absorbed like this...

Edit: Look guys, this is a Vanilla expansion of WoW designed to respect the spirit of vanilla WoW. Vanilla WoW absolutely and unequivocally placed PVE progress as a major factor in PVP success. You want a system that spits in the face of the spirit of Vanilla PVP. Its that simple. Turtle added content for PVP and enabled a route to PVP gearing but I dont think they ever intended it to be completely isolated from PVE. Again, the "spirit of vanilla" is a key factor here.

We disagree, getting gear trough PVP is and was part of vanilla. Twow devs in their infinite wisdom reworked the PVP system so gear is even more available, and there's more tiers of it.

You removed half this gear for the pretense it would make PVE "trivial".

So you're implying that me getting this PVP gear would be "free" or what?

My hours spent farming it and playing the game to acquire it aren't as "worthy" as doing PVE?

Yall are tripping and need a reality check

[Defiant]

We disagree, getting gear trough PVP is and was part of vanilla.

Great, quote me where I said it wasn't. What I said is that PVE progress is a major factor in PVP success. There's a difference. But lets be real too, people weren't hitting Rank 14 in strictly PVP gear back in the day. That's not how PVP progression worked, and it never was. I don't care what your opinion is on this because I was there. Ranking was infinitely harder than it is now, and it generally took organization to make it happen-- and if you rejected PVE progression then you were rejected from PVP teams. That's vanilla PVP. It always has been and I hope it always will be, because that's one of the many things that make vanilla unique. There are plenty of versions of WoW PVP that play the way you want it to play.

and there's more tiers of it.

Yes, and those additional tiers and the top Ranks are not available as it's a progression server.

You removed half this gear for the pretense it would make PVE "trivial".

Yes having Naxx level gear would in fact make Molten Core trivial. Do you disagree?

So you're implying that me getting this PVP gear would be "free" or what?

No, I'm implying this is a progression server.

My hours spent farming it and playing the game to acquire it aren't as "worthy" as doing PVE?

I think the issue you're having is that because you see "PVP server" you think that the only thing that should matter is PVP. That's not it, mate. You're playing a PVP World of Warcraft server. World of Warcraft inherently places a huge amount of value on PVE. Especially in Vanilla. It's not so much that your time spent PVPing isn't as "worthy" as doing PVE, it's that they're balanced. It being a PVP server has absolutely nothing to do with end game. You can rank up and get the PVP gear on PVE servers as well. The only thing you being on a PVP server really means is that you can gank people in redridge. That's it mate. You've created this idea of what a PVP server means in your head, and it's something I see a lot of you PVP players doing. You get world PVP. That's the difference. PVE is still extremely relevant and is essentially necessary to be competitive in PVP. That was always the case in Vanilla. If Turtle or Octo were to stray from that they would be abandoning their policy to honor the spirit of vanilla.

I guess another way to think of it is, you're not playing PVP. You're playing World of Warcraft. With PVP enabled. It's still World of Warcraft, and it's still geared around PVE.

Oh and to be clear, you will struggle against the PVP players that also put effort into their PVE progress as the various phases unlock. There are always going to be high value PVE pieces that outperform their PVP counterparts. If you want to gimp yourself and ignore PVE that's fine. That's your choice. If absolutely everything was unlocked, PVP and PVE, you would be getting stomped by players that participate in both and you'd be whining just the same.

[Crackadia]

We disagree, getting gear trough PVP is and was part of vanilla.

Great, quote me where I said it wasn't. What I said is that PVE progress is a major factor in PVP success. There's a difference. But lets be real too, people weren't hitting Rank 14 in strictly PVP gear back in the day. That's not how PVP progression worked, and it never was. I don't care what your opinion is on this because I was there. Ranking was infinitely harder than it is now, and it generally took organization to make it happen-- and if you rejected PVE progression then you were rejected from PVP teams. That's vanilla PVP. It always has been and I hope it always will be, because that's one of the many things that make vanilla unique. There are plenty of versions of WoW PVP that play the way you want it to play.

and there's more tiers of it.

Yes, and those additional tiers and the top Ranks are not available as it's a progression server.

You removed half this gear for the pretense it would make PVE "trivial".

Yes having Naxx level gear would in fact make Molten Core trivial. Do you disagree?

So you're implying that me getting this PVP gear would be "free" or what?

No, I'm implying this is a progression server.

My hours spent farming it and playing the game to acquire it aren't as "worthy" as doing PVE?

I think the issue you're having is that because you see "PVP server" you think that the only thing that should matter is PVP. That's not it, mate. You're playing a PVP World of Warcraft server. World of Warcraft inherently places a huge amount of value on PVE. Especially in Vanilla. It's not so much that your time spent PVPing isn't as "worthy" as doing PVE, it's that they're balanced. It being a PVP server has absolutely nothing to do with end game. You can rank up and get the PVP gear on PVE servers as well. The only thing you being on a PVP server really means is that you can gank people in redridge. That's it mate. You've created this idea of what a PVP server means in your head, and it's something I see a lot of you PVP players doing. You get world PVP. That's the difference. PVE is still extremely relevant and is essentially necessary to be competitive in PVP. That was always the case in Vanilla. If Turtle or Octo were to stray from that they would be abandoning their policy to honor the spirit of vanilla.

I guess another way to think of it is, you're not playing PVP. You're playing World of Warcraft. With PVP enabled. It's still World of Warcraft, and it's still geared around PVE.

Oh and to be clear, you will struggle against the PVP players that also put effort into their PVE progress as the various phases unlock. There are always going to be high value PVE pieces that outperform their PVP counterparts. If you want to gimp yourself and ignore PVE that's fine. That's your choice. If absolutely everything was unlocked, PVP and PVE, you would be getting stomped by players that participate in both and you'd be whining just the same.

In vanilla pvp gear absolutely was better than the pve gear and people en masse did r14 to use it in pve.

If you really want to argue for vanilla like, what I am suggesting is exactly that.

[Defiant]

If you really want to argue for vanilla like, what I am suggesting is exactly that.

Well we obviously aren't going to see eye to eye because we apparently both played back then yet had polar opposite experiences. It's funny how that works, right?

[Crackadia]

If you really want to argue for vanilla like, what I am suggesting is exactly that.

Well we obviously aren't going to see eye to eye because we apparently both played back then yet had polar opposite experiences. It's funny how that works, right?

You think spending 2h in molten core to get bis PVP items is by any standard harder than farming thousands of hours of bgs/pvp?

You think giving raiders bis pvp loot for free is good for the server?

You think making pvp redundant trough staggering the pvp gear by 1 phase behind pve is a good thing?

Kestrel coming in here with 'we want players to pvp for pvp sake and not for the gear'.

Kestrel how much do you pvp?
I pvp a lot even with the gear being unavailable. I play bgs even when I get no gear from them.

Your argument that pvp weapons make pve trivial stands as much as mine does that pve gear makes pvp trivial.

[Wrothag]

Great, quote me where I said it wasn't. What I said is that PVE progress is a major factor in PVP success. There's a difference. But lets be real too, people weren't hitting Rank 14 in strictly PVP gear back in the day. That's not how PVP progression worked, and it never was. I don't care what your opinion is on this because I was there. Ranking was infinitely harder than it is now, and it generally took organization to make it happen-- and if you rejected PVE progression then you were rejected from PVP teams. That's vanilla PVP. It always has been and I hope it always will be, because that's one of the many things that make vanilla unique. There are plenty of versions of WoW PVP that play the way you want it to play.

Interesting, the first time I entered MC/Ony was in R14 gear (2006). In reality hardly anyone in the 'warlord team' had PvE items as ranking took all the time.

Anyway, this system looks fine.