Druid - Dreamwalking - DPS/Healer Hybrid
Grow mushrooms that heal or blow up. Summon treants that fight for you, growing bigger and more numerous as you progress. Supercharge your thorns and roots. With no points, all Druids get aoe mushroom traps and some additional thorns-themed nature damage spells. With some points, the ability to detonate mushrooms gives useful AoE healing and damage, and the ability to summon a minion makes levelling easier. With lots of points, you become a utility powerhouse with incredible CC and minions that can off-heal and off-tank for you, but your own damage and healing suffers rom neglect.
Hunter
Packleading - DPS
Gain the ability to lead packs of up to 3 pets, instead of just one, at the cost of most of your own personal power. Each pet is individually weaker than for other hunters, but if you are able to coordinate and manage them properly you can achieve incredible things. To make this work at its best, some new pet families should be added to provide more options for ranged, healing, and cc pets.
- OR -
Scouting - Support
Replace your ability to tame pets with the ability to go into stealth. Improve your ability to mark targets or parts of the battlefield with additional marks that radically increase your party's strength against those targets. Gain strong attacks from stealth, as well as melee attacks that can disorient enemies and help you regain range or return to stealth. With no points, gain different types of marks and a few melee strikes. With some points, gain stealth and a guarilla-warfare-like combat style that can complement your rotations from other trees. With lots of points, become a team-support specialist that directs the battlefield while remaining unseen.
Mage
Battle - DPS/Tank Hybrid
Gain melee attacks and reactive shields, including the ability to regain mana from fighting in melee. Depending on how you build your character, this may be a simple melee dps spec, or a dps/tanking hybrid that gains damage as it takes damage, gains mana as it deals damage, and thrives when given the opportunity to bounce between melee, ranged, tanking, and dps alternately as the fight progresses. With no points, new melee attacks add some panic buttons. With some points, weaving into and out of melee allows a mage to last longer in a fight. With lots of points, you become one of the most challenging but rewarding hybrid specs with the ability to take heat off your tank or change the course of a battle that's going sideways.
- OR -
Time - Healer
Rewind damage, remove debuffs, restore characters to their previous state, or accelerate injuries on your enemies. With no points, all mages gain the ability to shed certain debuffs, teleport back to a previous position, or decrepify enemies. With some points, you sacrifice the pure damage potential of other specs for greater survivability and some added utility, including the ability to heal while levelling or if your party overlevels the content. With lots of points, you become a pure healer on par with any other.
Paladin - Inspiration - Support
Your blessings and auras become the core of your role in the group, gaining massively increased power at the cost of your own personal power. Actively empower your auras and provide additional benefits to allies standing within your consecrated ground. With no points, you can temporarily boost the power of your auras and can both refresh and spread your consecration. With some points, strengthening your auras becomes a core part of your rotation, providing group utility in return for some lost personal power. With lots of points, you become a pure support specialist focussed entirely on maximizing the effects of your buffs, providing more damage and damage reduction to your allies than any single dpser could ever hope to provide on their own.
Priest
Monasticism - DPS
Your faith is your armour and your weapon. Wielding a mace and shield, staff, or pair of fist weapons, you drive into the thick of melee and let the light itself keep you there. Your attacks can restore stacks of Inner Fire, while other abilities can utilize these stacks for additional effects. With no points, all priests gain a few new melee attacks. With some points, fighting in melee can help you regenerate mana and fire off the occasional instant heal. With lots of points, the choice of which weapon type you want to specialize in becomes a choice of gameplay style, whether you focus on survivability (mace), utility (staff), or full-throttle dps (fists).
- OR -
Inquisition - DPS
With your Bonded Retainer at your side, you strike a balance between rooting out corruption with shadow magic, and purging it from existence with holy fire. With no points, all priests gain some interesting new utility effects, such as a new shadow-based spell that causes all subsequent smites on the target to also spread healing to your allies, or a new healing spell that targets the enemy and causes each of their attacks to heal their target. With some points, you gain the ability to summon your Bonded Retainer, which can tank and dps for you while gaining bonus damage whenever it soaks up your heals, making it a powerful boon to any other spec. With lots of points, you become an unusual pet-based dps spec that weaves holy damage, shadow damage, and heals together.
Rogue - Inspiration - Support
Sing balads, tap out rhythms, take the stage and be the centre of attention... then skulk away at the perfect moment carrying everyone else's pocket change. This support spec is all about timing, with some effects that qualitatively change based on combo points, and others you need to balance with your energy regen to maximize their duration. With no points, new rhythm-based skills can add a dynamic new combat style to certain specs, and some new support skills can give you the choice to trade damage for group buffs. With some points, the ability to draw threat or redirect it towards a designated target gives you added control over the battlefield, and your longer lasting group-support buffs become worthwhile uses for your combo points. With lots of points, you dedicate yourself entirely to the support role, focusing all of your energy on maintaining the perfect rhythm.
Shaman - Spirit Walking - Support
The Tauren Spirit Walkers have the tradition to together bind the spirits of their allies, making the group stronger than the sum of its members. Sharing this tradition with the rest of the Horde, Shamans can now learn several different spells that can share damage, buffs, and healing across the party, or the enemy's party, as well as new spells that can inflict damage directly to enemies' spirits. With no points, you gain a variety of spirit links that can spread damage and healing, as well as new attacks spells that bypass damage resistance. With some points, your spirit links become the key to your strength, allowing you to greatly amplify or dampen effects instead of just spreading them around. With lots of points, you can share and balance life totals across the party, making it difficult for any of you to fall unless you all do.
Warlock - Metamorphosis - Tank
Lock tank. AoE self-immolation. The shift and its melee skills are baseline, provided you sacrifice your pet for it, but the power to tank while shifted comes from the spec.
Warrior - Command - Support
Issue commands to your party, and they receive buffs when following them. Switch into Command Stance to supercharge your shouts. You aren't just the front line, but the battle-hardened veteran capable of seeing through the haze of battle and keeping your allies fighting. With no points, additional shouts can give you new utility options, and commands can buff your allies if you've got the thread to switch into Command Stance and throw them out. With some points, stance dancing between Command Stance and your other stances can make you a devastating field commander in addition to your other roles, trading some damage or damage reduction for powerful group buffs. With lots of points, command becomes your primary responsibility, turning you into a pure support spec that can draw rage from the battle around you even without attacking yourself.
Wording note:
Hybrid: spec that does multiple roles at once, or that can switch between multiple roles within a single fight. For ex: Balance Druid, Feral Druid, Enh Shaman, Ele Shaman, Ret Paladin, Shadow Priest.
Support: spec that has the parimary responsibility of buffing allies, bringing as much as or more to the group than they would if they were another DPS. May or may not have some ability to heal, but can't function as a main healer (that would make them a hybrid). Just like with tanks and healers, multiple supports don't stack well enough to be worthwhile unless you're in a raid.
Utility: spec that offers useful things over and above their normal role, such as CC, cleansing, or misdirection.
Fourth Spec Ideas
Re: Fourth Spec Ideas
Fun ideas. Maybe for retail/Ascension, but not at all OctoWoW.
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Allarielle
- Posts: 9
Re: Fourth Spec Ideas
Fair enough! In my mind, whether it's 'Retail-like', 'Ascension-like', or 'OctoWoW-like' comes down to the pace and complexity of combat and the number of buttons you're expected to manage.
Retail is all about complex-feeling rotations with lots of buttons. Ascension is all about fancy resource mechanics and giving everyone access to every tool in the shed, sometimes in triplicate. For these trees to feel like they fit in an OctoWoW context, I feel what they'd need is to be very sparing with their additions of new skills, keep any added utility to the 21 or 31 point capstones, or make the new skill additions ones that are only useful in extremely rare situations for the other specs.
For example, all Warriors might gain access to Command Stance, but it just wouldn't be worth the rage for anyone not specced for it. All Mages might gain a few new melee skills, but unless they're specced Battle they'd be more interested in getting away than getting close. In both cases, the addition of more buttons doesn't actually change the gameplay for the other specs in any noticable ways. This is basically like how Druids work, where a lazy Feral Combat Druid might not even have Wrath on their action bar.
The main difference here is the addition of Support role specs, and... yeah that's just personal preference. I'd rather see parties be [Tank, Healer, Support, DPS, DPS], than have them be [Tank, Healer, DPS, DPS, DPS]. I just think that's more interesting and more fun.
Is your issue that you think fourth specs don't belong at all, that these ones in particular don't fit, or that it's just too costly an addition for the dev team?
Retail is all about complex-feeling rotations with lots of buttons. Ascension is all about fancy resource mechanics and giving everyone access to every tool in the shed, sometimes in triplicate. For these trees to feel like they fit in an OctoWoW context, I feel what they'd need is to be very sparing with their additions of new skills, keep any added utility to the 21 or 31 point capstones, or make the new skill additions ones that are only useful in extremely rare situations for the other specs.
For example, all Warriors might gain access to Command Stance, but it just wouldn't be worth the rage for anyone not specced for it. All Mages might gain a few new melee skills, but unless they're specced Battle they'd be more interested in getting away than getting close. In both cases, the addition of more buttons doesn't actually change the gameplay for the other specs in any noticable ways. This is basically like how Druids work, where a lazy Feral Combat Druid might not even have Wrath on their action bar.
The main difference here is the addition of Support role specs, and... yeah that's just personal preference. I'd rather see parties be [Tank, Healer, Support, DPS, DPS], than have them be [Tank, Healer, DPS, DPS, DPS]. I just think that's more interesting and more fun.
Is your issue that you think fourth specs don't belong at all, that these ones in particular don't fit, or that it's just too costly an addition for the dev team?
Re: Fourth Spec Ideas
While mostly fun ideas i don't want it, Turtle wow's class changes 2 was already a bit over the top(what we currently have) in some cases.
Personally i would rather step back a bit.
But regardless of that, balancing and testing new specs for every class is a huge project. Resources and time is better spent on future content if they were to try for a similarly huge project imo.
If Octo is able to create further quality content at all, if not then they are prob not able to do something like this either.
Personally i would rather step back a bit.
But regardless of that, balancing and testing new specs for every class is a huge project. Resources and time is better spent on future content if they were to try for a similarly huge project imo.
If Octo is able to create further quality content at all, if not then they are prob not able to do something like this either.
Re: Fourth Spec Ideas
Two big issues I see with your methodology.Allarielle wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2026 8:44 am Fair enough! In my mind, whether it's 'Retail-like', 'Ascension-like', or 'OctoWoW-like' comes down to the pace and complexity of combat and the number of buttons you're expected to manage.
Retail is all about complex-feeling rotations with lots of buttons. Ascension is all about fancy resource mechanics and giving everyone access to every tool in the shed, sometimes in triplicate. For these trees to feel like they fit in an OctoWoW context, I feel what they'd need is to be very sparing with their additions of new skills, keep any added utility to the 21 or 31 point capstones, or make the new skill additions ones that are only useful in extremely rare situations for the other specs.
For example, all Warriors might gain access to Command Stance, but it just wouldn't be worth the rage for anyone not specced for it. All Mages might gain a few new melee skills, but unless they're specced Battle they'd be more interested in getting away than getting close. In both cases, the addition of more buttons doesn't actually change the gameplay for the other specs in any noticable ways. This is basically like how Druids work, where a lazy Feral Combat Druid might not even have Wrath on their action bar.
The main difference here is the addition of Support role specs, and... yeah that's just personal preference. I'd rather see parties be [Tank, Healer, Support, DPS, DPS], than have them be [Tank, Healer, DPS, DPS, DPS]. I just think that's more interesting and more fun.
Is your issue that you think fourth specs don't belong at all, that these ones in particular don't fit, or that it's just too costly an addition for the dev team?
Firstly, the point of Vanilla class/spec design is that the classes can already do all the things in the trees, the trees just make you better at one side of your kit. This shifted around the time of Cataclysm where specs started to become different sub-classes within a class as opposed to the same class with different specialities and they kept getting more and more bizarre and unique from there.
So saying something like 'Command stance wouldn't be worth the rage for anyone not specced for it' is antithetical to the nature of Vanilla class design. The specs have favoured stances but they still benefit from the ability to use all of them. A fire mage still gets a lot of utility from frost nova. Druids really are the only class where this isn't the case and that's more an exception that fits their specific class utility than a blueprint for other classes.
If the abilities aren't really worth using then they're not really part of the class's kit, and you don't want to bury too many active abilities in a talent tree either because that just gives that spec much more active utility compared with the other 3 who are working with fewer options. If the spec isn't a natural extrapolation of the existing kit then it's not a great fit.
Secondly, Vanilla doesn't really have room for support roles. The dungeons are designed with 3 dps, 1 tank, and 1 healer in mind. In order for support to be viable it would need to increase the group's DPS comparatively with a DPS class at which point there's no reason to pick support over DPS... OR be BETTER than 3 dps at which point how do you even balance that because you also need to account for raids and if 2DPS + 1Sup is better than 3dps then how is that going to affect the entire raiding/balance discussion, and what impact is boosting the effectiveness of other players that much going to have on battlegrounds too?
What you're talking about is adding more complexity to a very simple system with very few variables. In a more nuanced environment that might be viable but Warcraft isn't really that kind of sandbox and even if it was it's not really that kind of setting either. To my knowledge the closest thing Warcraft's setting has to a bard is the Kodo Beast from WC3.
These sorts of things are fun to think on but to fit the tone of Octo/Turty a 4th spec set would probably be far less drastic a changeup from the other 3 in most cases.
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Allarielle
- Posts: 9
Re: Fourth Spec Ideas
Hey that's great feedback! Although I would push back a bit on the idea that the trees just make you better at one side of your kit. How often does a Frost spec mage cast Firebolt or Arcane Missiles? Ultimately what you're describing, though, is up to tuning.
The new specs should bring approximately ~12 new baseline skills, plus 2-3 new spec-specific skills, while simultaneously not making the kits of any other specs notably more complicated. That's a delicate line to walk, but it isn't impossible. Alternatively, some skills could be shifted from the old specs to the new ones, so that ~12 could be reduced. I'm basing those numbers on the number of skills each of the existing trees have, trying to err on the low end.
Fair pushback on the idea of Support roles. In my mind, vanilla design is based around the party, so the support buffs would only be party wide. Support buffs on 2 dps plus the dps they themselves bring would be slightly more than if there were 3 dps instead, while the support also brings buffs to damage mitigation and healing done, making it an obvious but not absolutely mandatory choice for groups of 5. In a raid, if the support is boosting a group of 4 dpsers they'd be a lot more valuable, but again you'd only bring a max of 1 per group.
As for the amount of work and the difficulty, it wouldn't necessarily be a requirement to release them all at once. If one class gets a shiny new thing, the other classes can be kept happy as long as they know their shiny new thing is coming.
Still, ideas are always in plentiful supply. Here are some alternatives:
Paladin - Conviction - DPS
Standing in the heat of battle, the Paladin wields their faith as their strongest weapon, issueing judgement and holy strikes against all who stand in their way. A mid-range AoE-focussed dps, a Paladin talented in Conviction must position themselves well to unleash waves of healing and holy damage across the battlefield. At baseline, a number of additional holy damage spells are added, including a long cooldown frontal cone AoE that both damages enemies and heals allies, and a new seal that absorbs damage done to apply damage shields to all nearby allies when unleashed. With some points in Conviction, AoE damage and healing is increased. With many points in Conviction, you become a holy spellcaster specialized in instant cast strikes and waves of AoE damage.
Rogue - Deception - Tank
An enemy cannot strike you if they cannot see you. A Rogue talented in Deception is a master of disguise, trickery, and illusions, taking the attention of their foes so their accomplices might get away unscathed. New baseline skills give the Rogue the ability to take the attention of enemies in an area or build threat, as well as expend combo points to increase their own chance to dodge or redirect damage taken to an illusory body double. A new finisher can inflict high-threat damage quickly and then grant an instant combo point to be applied to the next target. With some points in Deception, the Rogue gains the ability to shrug off a portion of all damage taken a the cost of somewhat reduced damage, and improves their ability to switch targets mid rotation. With many points in Deception, the Rogue becomes a primary tank capable of standing beside any other, with the specialty of being strong at both building and shedding threat quickly on many targets at once, and having a small number of short duration damage absorption effects.
Shaman - Ancestry - Healer
Drawing upon the wisdom of the ancestors, Shamans specialized in Ancestry have clear vision and the ability to predict danger, as well as the power to call upon the spirits in times of need. At baseline, all Shamans gain a small number of new shocks and strikes that are guaranteed to hit and ignore damage reduction effects, as well as some effects that can highlight enemies' weaknesses or mitigate damage on a chosen target for a very short duration, including Earth Shield. With some points in Ancestry, the Shaman gains more powerful damage mitigation effects on their chosen target, as well as a new Air Totem that provides dodge chance to the party. With many points in Ancestry, the Shaman becomes a primary healer focussed on powerful healing totems and on predicting damage before it happens, including significant enhancements to Grounding Totem and Healing Stream Totem, and a 31 point Fire Totem - Blazing Spirit Totem - that periodically boosts healing received.
Warrior
Control - Tank
Where some Warriors fight for anger or duty, others see the battlefield with clearer eyes, solving each melee as a complex puzzle of moving parts. Using Control Stance, the Warrior gains increased damage reduction the lower their current rage, while also gaining access to a number of abilities that can help them control both the battlefield and themself. At baseline, all Warriors gain Control Stance and a number of utility skills associated with it, including a high threat strike with no rage cost, a taunt that can be used at range, a wide area AoE slow, a weapon throw that can stun a target at range, and a skill that can be used to instantly dump rage in return for a small self-heal. With some points in Control, Warriors gain increased damage mitigation and additional utility, allowing them to better navigate the battlefield and keep their allies from harm. With many points in Control, Warriors become a primary tank specialized in stuns, slows, positioning, and attracting threat from range.
- OR -
Headhunting - DPS
Specialized in thrown weapons, the Headhunting Warrior has a plethora of advanced ranged attacks, allowing them to cripple enemies and pick them off from range. At baseline, the Warrior gains Throwing Stance and a number of skills associated with it, including multiple ranged attacks that use thrown weapons, a ranged slow, and an ability that can keep track of thrown weapons and regain a portion of them over time when moving around. With some points in Headhunting, the Warrior enhances their ability to deal damage at any range, allowing them to dance into and out of melee as required for the situation. With many points in Headhunting, the Warrior becomes a ranged damage powerhouse specialized in direct single target damage and bleeds - they don't necessarily do as much damage as a Mage or Hunter, but they're sturdy and ready for anything.
The new specs should bring approximately ~12 new baseline skills, plus 2-3 new spec-specific skills, while simultaneously not making the kits of any other specs notably more complicated. That's a delicate line to walk, but it isn't impossible. Alternatively, some skills could be shifted from the old specs to the new ones, so that ~12 could be reduced. I'm basing those numbers on the number of skills each of the existing trees have, trying to err on the low end.
Fair pushback on the idea of Support roles. In my mind, vanilla design is based around the party, so the support buffs would only be party wide. Support buffs on 2 dps plus the dps they themselves bring would be slightly more than if there were 3 dps instead, while the support also brings buffs to damage mitigation and healing done, making it an obvious but not absolutely mandatory choice for groups of 5. In a raid, if the support is boosting a group of 4 dpsers they'd be a lot more valuable, but again you'd only bring a max of 1 per group.
As for the amount of work and the difficulty, it wouldn't necessarily be a requirement to release them all at once. If one class gets a shiny new thing, the other classes can be kept happy as long as they know their shiny new thing is coming.
Still, ideas are always in plentiful supply. Here are some alternatives:
Paladin - Conviction - DPS
Standing in the heat of battle, the Paladin wields their faith as their strongest weapon, issueing judgement and holy strikes against all who stand in their way. A mid-range AoE-focussed dps, a Paladin talented in Conviction must position themselves well to unleash waves of healing and holy damage across the battlefield. At baseline, a number of additional holy damage spells are added, including a long cooldown frontal cone AoE that both damages enemies and heals allies, and a new seal that absorbs damage done to apply damage shields to all nearby allies when unleashed. With some points in Conviction, AoE damage and healing is increased. With many points in Conviction, you become a holy spellcaster specialized in instant cast strikes and waves of AoE damage.
Rogue - Deception - Tank
An enemy cannot strike you if they cannot see you. A Rogue talented in Deception is a master of disguise, trickery, and illusions, taking the attention of their foes so their accomplices might get away unscathed. New baseline skills give the Rogue the ability to take the attention of enemies in an area or build threat, as well as expend combo points to increase their own chance to dodge or redirect damage taken to an illusory body double. A new finisher can inflict high-threat damage quickly and then grant an instant combo point to be applied to the next target. With some points in Deception, the Rogue gains the ability to shrug off a portion of all damage taken a the cost of somewhat reduced damage, and improves their ability to switch targets mid rotation. With many points in Deception, the Rogue becomes a primary tank capable of standing beside any other, with the specialty of being strong at both building and shedding threat quickly on many targets at once, and having a small number of short duration damage absorption effects.
Shaman - Ancestry - Healer
Drawing upon the wisdom of the ancestors, Shamans specialized in Ancestry have clear vision and the ability to predict danger, as well as the power to call upon the spirits in times of need. At baseline, all Shamans gain a small number of new shocks and strikes that are guaranteed to hit and ignore damage reduction effects, as well as some effects that can highlight enemies' weaknesses or mitigate damage on a chosen target for a very short duration, including Earth Shield. With some points in Ancestry, the Shaman gains more powerful damage mitigation effects on their chosen target, as well as a new Air Totem that provides dodge chance to the party. With many points in Ancestry, the Shaman becomes a primary healer focussed on powerful healing totems and on predicting damage before it happens, including significant enhancements to Grounding Totem and Healing Stream Totem, and a 31 point Fire Totem - Blazing Spirit Totem - that periodically boosts healing received.
Warrior
Control - Tank
Where some Warriors fight for anger or duty, others see the battlefield with clearer eyes, solving each melee as a complex puzzle of moving parts. Using Control Stance, the Warrior gains increased damage reduction the lower their current rage, while also gaining access to a number of abilities that can help them control both the battlefield and themself. At baseline, all Warriors gain Control Stance and a number of utility skills associated with it, including a high threat strike with no rage cost, a taunt that can be used at range, a wide area AoE slow, a weapon throw that can stun a target at range, and a skill that can be used to instantly dump rage in return for a small self-heal. With some points in Control, Warriors gain increased damage mitigation and additional utility, allowing them to better navigate the battlefield and keep their allies from harm. With many points in Control, Warriors become a primary tank specialized in stuns, slows, positioning, and attracting threat from range.
- OR -
Headhunting - DPS
Specialized in thrown weapons, the Headhunting Warrior has a plethora of advanced ranged attacks, allowing them to cripple enemies and pick them off from range. At baseline, the Warrior gains Throwing Stance and a number of skills associated with it, including multiple ranged attacks that use thrown weapons, a ranged slow, and an ability that can keep track of thrown weapons and regain a portion of them over time when moving around. With some points in Headhunting, the Warrior enhances their ability to deal damage at any range, allowing them to dance into and out of melee as required for the situation. With many points in Headhunting, the Warrior becomes a ranged damage powerhouse specialized in direct single target damage and bleeds - they don't necessarily do as much damage as a Mage or Hunter, but they're sturdy and ready for anything.
Re: Fourth Spec Ideas
I get what you're after but 12 is a full action bar worth of abilities. I think most classes don't even have 3 full action bars worth of abilities across all 3 specs put together. and as a point giving tanking abilities baseline to a rogue is going to make them more survivable in pvp regardless of which spec they pick and if the solution to balance a lot of classes getting more survivable is to give the other classes more damage to compensate then that throws off the PvE balance of the entire game.
So outside of rebalancing all PvE encounted these classes will end up with new abilities and their kits are nerfed unless they work them into their rotations. I think the aim should be to expand on possibilities already extant in their kits rather than seeking to add too many new abilities, and if a spec would require a lot of new abilities then they perhaps are not as good a fit for the existing class as we might hope.
Moreover, there's also the added issue of stat rebalancing on gear. A tank class wearing cloth is going to have a hard time finding stamina, for example. It's a lot larger of a job than people give it credit for. Possible, certainly, but after a point the game is going to start feeling a lot less like Vanilla.
So outside of rebalancing all PvE encounted these classes will end up with new abilities and their kits are nerfed unless they work them into their rotations. I think the aim should be to expand on possibilities already extant in their kits rather than seeking to add too many new abilities, and if a spec would require a lot of new abilities then they perhaps are not as good a fit for the existing class as we might hope.
Moreover, there's also the added issue of stat rebalancing on gear. A tank class wearing cloth is going to have a hard time finding stamina, for example. It's a lot larger of a job than people give it credit for. Possible, certainly, but after a point the game is going to start feeling a lot less like Vanilla.
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Allarielle
- Posts: 9
Re: Fourth Spec Ideas
I stand corrected. I was working on the assumption that most schools had between 12 and 14 skills, but I may have been influenced by being a Druid main 
After browsing the octo database, it seems 8-10 is the normal range. Keep in mind that this includes situational skills like Mind Sooth or Far Sight or Resurrection or Fire Ward. This is good, though! It makes the job easier 
The point was just that the fourth tree should add basically the same content to the class that the existing three add, no more, no less. Each existing tree is based very loosely around a single theme, spell school, or playstyle that the other two aren't. The fourth should be the same - something unique to it, that the existing three trees don't do, even if that something is an idea or theme.
And yeah, giving some tanking skills to a Rogue baseline 'would' be tough to balance without destabilizing PvP. That's a legitimate concern... but it's also something that could be accounted for during the tuning phase. Adding new tools and playstyles is always going to throw off balance a bit, but it doesn't necessarily mean that creative solutions don't exist to bring balance back. It's not a reason not to try. If the risk of failure is a reason why one doesn't try, one will never be able to succeed.
The alternative is for Octo to remain stuck with only 3 trees per class, and that would be an absolute crying shame. If the goal is to be Classic+, it needs to have the +, and new specs and classes are a critical part of that. New specs breathe new life into the game, give people new reasons to level up new characters, and just make the server better over all. If some of those specs throw off balance for a bit? It's not like they can't release balance patches. It would be boring if the meta never changed anyway.
Rogues in particular have a beautiful balancing mechanic in that their energy only regenerates so fast, so whenever you add new skills, you only need to control for situations - if the tanking skills are less useful in a given situation than their existing alternatives, then balance remains unaffected in that situation. In a PvP context, the Rogue would be choosing between survivability and damage every time their energy ticks up, rather than gaining both, so while it would make PvP more complicated, it wouldn't necessarily make Rogues any more powerful.
After browsing the octo database, it seems 8-10 is the normal range. Keep in mind that this includes situational skills like Mind Sooth or Far Sight or Resurrection or Fire Ward. This is good, though! It makes the job easier The point was just that the fourth tree should add basically the same content to the class that the existing three add, no more, no less. Each existing tree is based very loosely around a single theme, spell school, or playstyle that the other two aren't. The fourth should be the same - something unique to it, that the existing three trees don't do, even if that something is an idea or theme.
And yeah, giving some tanking skills to a Rogue baseline 'would' be tough to balance without destabilizing PvP. That's a legitimate concern... but it's also something that could be accounted for during the tuning phase. Adding new tools and playstyles is always going to throw off balance a bit, but it doesn't necessarily mean that creative solutions don't exist to bring balance back. It's not a reason not to try. If the risk of failure is a reason why one doesn't try, one will never be able to succeed.
The alternative is for Octo to remain stuck with only 3 trees per class, and that would be an absolute crying shame. If the goal is to be Classic+, it needs to have the +, and new specs and classes are a critical part of that. New specs breathe new life into the game, give people new reasons to level up new characters, and just make the server better over all. If some of those specs throw off balance for a bit? It's not like they can't release balance patches. It would be boring if the meta never changed anyway.
Rogues in particular have a beautiful balancing mechanic in that their energy only regenerates so fast, so whenever you add new skills, you only need to control for situations - if the tanking skills are less useful in a given situation than their existing alternatives, then balance remains unaffected in that situation. In a PvP context, the Rogue would be choosing between survivability and damage every time their energy ticks up, rather than gaining both, so while it would make PvP more complicated, it wouldn't necessarily make Rogues any more powerful.
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Allarielle
- Posts: 9
Re: Fourth Spec Ideas
Here's an example of what I'm thinking.
Mage
Arcane (14): Conjure Food, Conjure Water, Conjure Mana Gem, Counterspell, Detect Magic, Dampen Magic, Amplify Magic, Remove Lesser Curse, Mage Armor, Polymorph, Mana Shield, Arcane Intellect, Arcane Explosion, Arcane Missiles
Fire (5): Fireball, Fire Blast, Fire Ward, Flamestrike, Scorch
Frost (6): Blizzard, Cone of Cold, Frost/Ice Armor, Frost Nova, Frost Ward, Frostbolt
Time (12):
Skills pulled from other trees: Teleport, Portal, Slow Fall, Blink, Evocation
Accelerated Mending - Rank 1 (learned at level 8)
105 mana 30 yd range
Channeled
Accelerates the natural healing of the target ally, healing for 36 every second for 4 seconds, and allowing 50% of the target's health regeneration to remain active while in combat.
---> Approx the same power as Lesser Heal, though with slightly less HPS and a higher risk of interruption. Does give Mages more tools in PvP, but shouldn't be too disruptive over all.
---> Talents increase the duration per cast, which makes it dramatically more mana efficient, but not much more powerful.
Crystallize - Rank 1 (learned at level 12)
90 mana 10 yd range
2.5 sec cast
Crystallize a shell around the target, absorbing 142 damage, but slowing movement speed by 20%. While the shell holds, spellcasting will not be interrupted by damage. Lasts 8 sec.
---> A relatively generic shield, but the long cast time, short duration, and short range make it something you need to think about casting. It's more mana efficient than Power Word: Shield, and doesn't have the Weakened Soul effect, but it should be much harder to use effectively.
---> Talents can make it faster to cast and have a longer range, but can't increase the duration.
---> This could be a very strong addition to PvP and to AoE farming, so the short duration and slow effect helps to balance that out.
Anchor - Rank 1 (learned at level 16)
20% of base mana 10 yd range
Instant
Attaches an anchor to the target's timeline. Lasts 12 sec.
---> The very short range will force the Mage to pay some attention to positioning, and give consideration to when the Anchor should be placed. Talents could increase the range, though.
---> Later ranks last longer, but cost more.
Rollback - Rank 1 (learned at level 16)
95 mana 30 yd range
Instant 1 min cooldown
Rolls back the target's timeline to the position of its Anchor, returning its position, momentum, status effects, and resources to exactly how they were at the moment the Anchor was placed. Can only be cast on targets with an active Anchor.
---> Anchor and Rollback can both be used offensively against non-boss targets, or even on the Mage themself, adding an interesting new mechanic that Mages can utilize.
---> Note that Rollback does not roll back the status of the target's cooldowns.
---> This could have substantial impact on PvP, particularly for pulling enemy flag carriers back, getting away from dangerous situations, or restoring targets that are being burned down. The former two of those are things Mages are already very good at, and it's balanced by the difficulty and cost of applying Anchor. This is a powerful heal that any Mage can use, though. It could shift the meta to favour classes that can dispel the Anchor. The fact that non-time Mages need to be almost within melee range to cast the Anchor, though, invites some amount of counterplay.
---> Can be talented to not roll back individual resources - Health, Energy, Mana, or Rage - if it would result in a decrease.
---> Can be talented to not roll back negative status effects.
Pulse - Rank 1 (learned at level 24)
135 mana 30 yd range
1 sec cast
Release a pulse of fluctuating time in a wave around the targetted point. Targets in the affected area become Temporally Destabilized for up to 6 seconds. If any affected target is already Temporally Destabilized, the time since that previous destabilization occurred is converted into a damage or healing over time effect lasting the same length of time. Heals allies for 38, and damages enemies for 24 physical damage, over the duration.
---> This spell is slightly too complex for a classic spell, but its usage should be pretty simple in practice. Cast it frequently for rapid healing/damage, or infrequently for slow healing/damage. Slower is better for mana efficiency, and if you let it fall off, it costs you to get it going again.
---> For non-Time mages, popping off a couple of rapid pulses to heal an area is an expensive but possibly worthwhile AoE heal. The damage component makes it clearly worse than of the other AoE options, but with the healing component in a mixed target area, it could be worthwhile.
---> Can be talented to be instant, and/or to have a longer window for the second cast.
---> Multiple Mages casting Pulse will only apply one Temporally Destabilized and one DoT/HoT. This applies across faction boundaries, so two Time Mages on opposing sides can play off each others' Pulses to apply DoTs/HoTs. The DoT and the HoT are mutually exclusive with each other, though. If you see an enemy Mage trying to heal their allies, you can try to ruin their day by turning their HoT into a DoT.
---> If two Pulses happen less than a second apart, the minimum duration for the HoT/DoT is 1 second.
Accelerated Injury - Rank 1 (learned at level 26)
285 mana 30 yd range
Channeled
Accelerates injuries on the enemy, increasing the damage it takes from all damage over time effects by 30% for 4 seconds.
---> Can be talented to also reduce healing taken by 25/50% deep in the tree.
Rewind - Rank 1 (learned at level 30)
35% of base mana
Instant 15 sec cooldown (shared with Blink)
Returns the caster to the position they were in 2 seconds ago. Also frees the caster from stuns and bonds.
---> Can be talented up to 3 seconds ago.
---> This is the sort of flavour that makes vanilla so much fun. It's an extremely situational ability, but knowing when to use it and being able to do so when those situations come up could make the difference between an average Mage and a great one.
Talent-learned Skills:
Greater Anchor - Rank 1 (21 point talent)
85% of base mana melee range
2 sec cast 6 min cooldown
Reagents: Refined Quartz (costs 1s from a Reagent Vendor, stacks to 20)
Attaches an incredibly powerful anchor to the target's timeline that activates upon death, allowing the Mage to Rollback an ally to life with 400 health and 800 mana. Cannot be cast while in combat. Lasts 30 min, or 2 min after activation. After rolling back a Greater Anchor, the Mage will not be able to roll back another for 6 minutes.
---> If you're willing to spend the reagents, you can theoretically keep this rolling on your whole party. If they die at least 6 min apart, you theoretically have unlimited battle rez's.
---> If you have multiple Time Mages in a raid, any Time Mage can Rollback any other Time Mage's Greater Anchor, but only Mages with the talent can do so. In practice, this means that Greater Anchor can be used more often than Rebirth, even multiple times in the same fight if the stars align, but the targets have to be chosen ahead of time.
Slow - Rank 1 (31 point talent)
20% of base mana 30 yd range
Instant
Reduces the target's movement speed by 50%, increases the time between attacks by 50%, and increases casting time by 50%. Lasts 15 sec. Can only affect one target at a time. Large targets are only affected by 20%.
---> Powerful damage reduction, even if it's only 20% against bosses.
Playstyle:
* If you're a Time Mage, cast Crystallize to keep your target stable while channelling Accelerated Mending to top them up. Keep Greater Anchor up on your party as much as possible, and cast regular Anchors shortly before you predict big spikes of damage. Use Pulse to top up AoE damage, or talent Pulse to increase its duration and try to keep it rolling at the slowest possible frequency for high mana efficiency. Use Slow to reduce incoming damage, especially in combination with Frost Nova. Talent Fire Ward and Frost Ward to be able to be cast on others, and do so whenever possible. Remember that Dampen Magic does not negatively affect the health regeneration portion of Accelerated Mending, the absorption from Crystallize/Fire Ward/Frost Ward, or the resource rollback from Rollback.
* If you're not a Time Mage, Accelerated Injury can be extremely powerful when fighting in a raid or in a group with multiple dotters. It could also be very good combined with rolling Ignites... subject to careful balancing. Crystallize can be good to cast just before an engagement, and Anchor/Rollback are an additional survivability tool or situational utility tool, but come with a relatively steep cost. Pulse is good to have on hand in case you need to disrupt an enemy Time Mage or your party is taking heavy damage, but is also generally too expensive to use unless the situation is truly urgent.
* If you're primarily another type of Mage, but decide to put some points into Time, you can pick up some early wins like reducing the cast time on Crystallize or the range on Anchor to add survivability and utility to your kit. Talenting your Rollback to not decrease Rage or Energy would also make it useful in a much broader range of situations. Talents to reduce the mana cost of Anchor or Pulse might also be worth picking up. Talenting Accelerated Mending for increased duration radically increases its mana efficiency, and could mean the difference between being able to heal and not, but be aware that you'll probably struggle regardless if you or your tank don't out-level the content.
Mage
Arcane (14): Conjure Food, Conjure Water, Conjure Mana Gem, Counterspell, Detect Magic, Dampen Magic, Amplify Magic, Remove Lesser Curse, Mage Armor, Polymorph, Mana Shield, Arcane Intellect, Arcane Explosion, Arcane Missiles
Fire (5): Fireball, Fire Blast, Fire Ward, Flamestrike, Scorch
Frost (6): Blizzard, Cone of Cold, Frost/Ice Armor, Frost Nova, Frost Ward, Frostbolt
Time (12):
Skills pulled from other trees: Teleport, Portal, Slow Fall, Blink, Evocation
Accelerated Mending - Rank 1 (learned at level 8)
105 mana 30 yd range
Channeled
Accelerates the natural healing of the target ally, healing for 36 every second for 4 seconds, and allowing 50% of the target's health regeneration to remain active while in combat.
---> Approx the same power as Lesser Heal, though with slightly less HPS and a higher risk of interruption. Does give Mages more tools in PvP, but shouldn't be too disruptive over all.
---> Talents increase the duration per cast, which makes it dramatically more mana efficient, but not much more powerful.
Crystallize - Rank 1 (learned at level 12)
90 mana 10 yd range
2.5 sec cast
Crystallize a shell around the target, absorbing 142 damage, but slowing movement speed by 20%. While the shell holds, spellcasting will not be interrupted by damage. Lasts 8 sec.
---> A relatively generic shield, but the long cast time, short duration, and short range make it something you need to think about casting. It's more mana efficient than Power Word: Shield, and doesn't have the Weakened Soul effect, but it should be much harder to use effectively.
---> Talents can make it faster to cast and have a longer range, but can't increase the duration.
---> This could be a very strong addition to PvP and to AoE farming, so the short duration and slow effect helps to balance that out.
Anchor - Rank 1 (learned at level 16)
20% of base mana 10 yd range
Instant
Attaches an anchor to the target's timeline. Lasts 12 sec.
---> The very short range will force the Mage to pay some attention to positioning, and give consideration to when the Anchor should be placed. Talents could increase the range, though.
---> Later ranks last longer, but cost more.
Rollback - Rank 1 (learned at level 16)
95 mana 30 yd range
Instant 1 min cooldown
Rolls back the target's timeline to the position of its Anchor, returning its position, momentum, status effects, and resources to exactly how they were at the moment the Anchor was placed. Can only be cast on targets with an active Anchor.
---> Anchor and Rollback can both be used offensively against non-boss targets, or even on the Mage themself, adding an interesting new mechanic that Mages can utilize.
---> Note that Rollback does not roll back the status of the target's cooldowns.
---> This could have substantial impact on PvP, particularly for pulling enemy flag carriers back, getting away from dangerous situations, or restoring targets that are being burned down. The former two of those are things Mages are already very good at, and it's balanced by the difficulty and cost of applying Anchor. This is a powerful heal that any Mage can use, though. It could shift the meta to favour classes that can dispel the Anchor. The fact that non-time Mages need to be almost within melee range to cast the Anchor, though, invites some amount of counterplay.
---> Can be talented to not roll back individual resources - Health, Energy, Mana, or Rage - if it would result in a decrease.
---> Can be talented to not roll back negative status effects.
Pulse - Rank 1 (learned at level 24)
135 mana 30 yd range
1 sec cast
Release a pulse of fluctuating time in a wave around the targetted point. Targets in the affected area become Temporally Destabilized for up to 6 seconds. If any affected target is already Temporally Destabilized, the time since that previous destabilization occurred is converted into a damage or healing over time effect lasting the same length of time. Heals allies for 38, and damages enemies for 24 physical damage, over the duration.
---> This spell is slightly too complex for a classic spell, but its usage should be pretty simple in practice. Cast it frequently for rapid healing/damage, or infrequently for slow healing/damage. Slower is better for mana efficiency, and if you let it fall off, it costs you to get it going again.
---> For non-Time mages, popping off a couple of rapid pulses to heal an area is an expensive but possibly worthwhile AoE heal. The damage component makes it clearly worse than of the other AoE options, but with the healing component in a mixed target area, it could be worthwhile.
---> Can be talented to be instant, and/or to have a longer window for the second cast.
---> Multiple Mages casting Pulse will only apply one Temporally Destabilized and one DoT/HoT. This applies across faction boundaries, so two Time Mages on opposing sides can play off each others' Pulses to apply DoTs/HoTs. The DoT and the HoT are mutually exclusive with each other, though. If you see an enemy Mage trying to heal their allies, you can try to ruin their day by turning their HoT into a DoT.
---> If two Pulses happen less than a second apart, the minimum duration for the HoT/DoT is 1 second.
Accelerated Injury - Rank 1 (learned at level 26)
285 mana 30 yd range
Channeled
Accelerates injuries on the enemy, increasing the damage it takes from all damage over time effects by 30% for 4 seconds.
---> Can be talented to also reduce healing taken by 25/50% deep in the tree.
Rewind - Rank 1 (learned at level 30)
35% of base mana
Instant 15 sec cooldown (shared with Blink)
Returns the caster to the position they were in 2 seconds ago. Also frees the caster from stuns and bonds.
---> Can be talented up to 3 seconds ago.
---> This is the sort of flavour that makes vanilla so much fun. It's an extremely situational ability, but knowing when to use it and being able to do so when those situations come up could make the difference between an average Mage and a great one.
Talent-learned Skills:
Greater Anchor - Rank 1 (21 point talent)
85% of base mana melee range
2 sec cast 6 min cooldown
Reagents: Refined Quartz (costs 1s from a Reagent Vendor, stacks to 20)
Attaches an incredibly powerful anchor to the target's timeline that activates upon death, allowing the Mage to Rollback an ally to life with 400 health and 800 mana. Cannot be cast while in combat. Lasts 30 min, or 2 min after activation. After rolling back a Greater Anchor, the Mage will not be able to roll back another for 6 minutes.
---> If you're willing to spend the reagents, you can theoretically keep this rolling on your whole party. If they die at least 6 min apart, you theoretically have unlimited battle rez's.
---> If you have multiple Time Mages in a raid, any Time Mage can Rollback any other Time Mage's Greater Anchor, but only Mages with the talent can do so. In practice, this means that Greater Anchor can be used more often than Rebirth, even multiple times in the same fight if the stars align, but the targets have to be chosen ahead of time.
Slow - Rank 1 (31 point talent)
20% of base mana 30 yd range
Instant
Reduces the target's movement speed by 50%, increases the time between attacks by 50%, and increases casting time by 50%. Lasts 15 sec. Can only affect one target at a time. Large targets are only affected by 20%.
---> Powerful damage reduction, even if it's only 20% against bosses.
Playstyle:
* If you're a Time Mage, cast Crystallize to keep your target stable while channelling Accelerated Mending to top them up. Keep Greater Anchor up on your party as much as possible, and cast regular Anchors shortly before you predict big spikes of damage. Use Pulse to top up AoE damage, or talent Pulse to increase its duration and try to keep it rolling at the slowest possible frequency for high mana efficiency. Use Slow to reduce incoming damage, especially in combination with Frost Nova. Talent Fire Ward and Frost Ward to be able to be cast on others, and do so whenever possible. Remember that Dampen Magic does not negatively affect the health regeneration portion of Accelerated Mending, the absorption from Crystallize/Fire Ward/Frost Ward, or the resource rollback from Rollback.
* If you're not a Time Mage, Accelerated Injury can be extremely powerful when fighting in a raid or in a group with multiple dotters. It could also be very good combined with rolling Ignites... subject to careful balancing. Crystallize can be good to cast just before an engagement, and Anchor/Rollback are an additional survivability tool or situational utility tool, but come with a relatively steep cost. Pulse is good to have on hand in case you need to disrupt an enemy Time Mage or your party is taking heavy damage, but is also generally too expensive to use unless the situation is truly urgent.
* If you're primarily another type of Mage, but decide to put some points into Time, you can pick up some early wins like reducing the cast time on Crystallize or the range on Anchor to add survivability and utility to your kit. Talenting your Rollback to not decrease Rage or Energy would also make it useful in a much broader range of situations. Talents to reduce the mana cost of Anchor or Pulse might also be worth picking up. Talenting Accelerated Mending for increased duration radically increases its mana efficiency, and could mean the difference between being able to heal and not, but be aware that you'll probably struggle regardless if you or your tank don't out-level the content.
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