Shaman Purge CD

[Defiant]

Can anyone explain to me why having a shaman with a purge cooldown makes any sense?

Why does purge get a cd but not the paladin dispel or the priest dispel?

Seems very paladin centric

So it was one of the few PVP balance changes Turtle made. They "nerfed" Paladins by increasing the CD on a couple things, but then heavily nerfed Purge which was the main way those abilities would get removed from the Paladin. It was an interesting change, from my perspective it wasn't actually a Paladin nerf like they framed it but actually a Paladin buff. Sure they couldn't cast that ability as often, but after the change once the ability was cast it wasn't nearly as likely to be removed. I can't even remember which Paladin ability was "nerfed" but I do remember laughing about it all at the time like oh yeah that's what you guys call a Paladin nerf hey?

The nerf to paladin was huge. Hand of Sacrifice would remove all CC from you whenever your HoS target took damage. It made you immune to CC forever as long as you had one single teammate with you to put hand of sacrifice on. It no longer breaks CC. The reason why this wasn't a well known thing was because most paladin players were retardins and they never used it. You are being disingenuous if you don't think this is a huge nerf.

I really can't remember the details, I'm not being disingenuous though-- at best I'm wrong.

My take on it at the time was that, so the cooldown was increased from 20 to 24 seconds or something like that? Maybe it was 20 to 28? Again it was awhile ago I don't quite remember. I just remember at the time I was pretty invested in PVP and to me at the time it felt like a Paladin buff. Because yes, they did increase the cooldown and on paper that is a nerf-- 100%-- but by essentially removing the one spell that countered it? I mean ok, so they put Purge on an 8sec cooldown right, and again maybe I'm an idiot and I'm lacking information but you couldn't pick and choose what Purge would remove. You could remove HoS or you could remove Arcane Intellect. And then you'd need to wait another 8seconds to try again. In the past you would just cast Purge until HoS was removed. Shamans weren't just going around spamming Purge on everything. They already had mana issues.

For some reason I thought it was Hand of Freedom that got changed? Maybe it was both HoF and HoS. I'm very hazy on the specifics so again I could be wrong but that was my feeling at the time.

It honestly just does not make sense. If shamans are overpowered then fix it some other way.

Definetely should be.
As rets.

There's two ways for purge - CD or increase mana cost.
Purge was always OP spell cuz some enh with 2k mana can dispell all your shit w/o any problem.
Usually shamans just chasing you and spam purge lol, making all caster classes dummies

All the cooldown really did was ensure that they couldn't remove specific effects. You would often need to cast purge twice in order to remove a specific buff or effect someone had and with the change you just couldn't do that. It was a massive nerf to purge which as I tried to explain above was a pretty big buff to Paladins. Yet that balance patch was framed as a Paladin nerf.

Increased mana cost would have been infinitely better, the cooldown basically neutered the ability. I agree that the ability to spam it on everyone could be a bit much, but I would argue there was already existing mana constraints and that most Shaman wouldn't "spam" it but there's no real point arguing that because again I agree to an extent that wasn't a good thing-- but the ability for Purge to remove a specific ability on a specific person would often require more than one cast of it, and that being taken from Shaman was in my opinion a large buff to Paladins.

[Sofka]

but the ability for Purge to remove a specific ability on a specific person would often require more than one cast of it

So what? Dispell is always random.
As support i want to dispell SW:P or Corruption, but instead it i dispell 1 of 5 poison from scorp pet.
It has always been this way and it is not subject to discussion.

[Zeryl]

Can anyone explain to me why having a shaman with a purge cooldown makes any sense?

Why does purge get a cd but not the paladin dispel or the priest dispel?

Seems very paladin centric

Because shamans got dps buffs to compete in PvE but that made them too strong in PvP now having both damage and oppressive utility.

Paladin in similar way got hit through their defensive utility: Blessing of Freedom (higher cooldown) and Blessing of Sacrifice (doesn't break CC).

Priest is a caster for which spending a gcd is much, much more valuable than for those others that attack in between.

Also, nerfing friendly dispels would affect PvE very negatively (see Lucifron).

[Defiant]

So what? Dispell is always random.

And it doesn't have a cooldown on it so it's not an issue. You're sort of making my point for me.

It's always going to be random and it *should* be random. My point was that by adding a cooldown, you can't remove the things you want to remove. So it's not just that there's a cooldown, which in and of itself is rough-- but essentially the core functionality of purge was gutted. Because you can't target things. You would need to cast it multiple times to target specifics buffs, just like you described needing to cast dispel multiple times. Now that can't be done.

Here's an example. A Paladin has three buffs on them. They then get say Blessing of Freedom. If a Shaman tries to purge that Freedom they could remove two of the existing three buffs instead. Then they need to wait 8 seconds for a second attempt at removing Freedom. In that eight seconds the Paladin could receive more buffs. For example if Kings was one of the buffs purged the Paladin could recast it themselves. So purge at that point can essentially be invalidated.

By adding the cooldown they changed the entire concept of purge. Purge should have just had its mana increased. That would discourage its use but allow it to be used the way it was designed to be used.

My main is a Paladin. The gutting of Purge was a huge buff for Paladins. So I would benefit from not talking about this lol.

It has always been this way and it is not subject to discussion.

I'm not quite sure that's the argument you would want to make on a Classic+ server lol.

[Rtas]

So what? Dispell is always random.

And it doesn't have a cooldown on it so it's not an issue. You're sort of making my point for me.

It's always going to be random and it *should* be random. My point was that by adding a cooldown, you can't remove the things you want to remove. So it's not just that there's a cooldown, which in and of itself is rough-- but essentially the core functionality of purge was gutted. Because you can't target things. You would need to cast it multiple times to target specifics buffs, just like you described needing to cast dispel multiple times. Now that can't be done.

Here's an example. A Paladin has three buffs on them. They then get say Blessing of Freedom. If a Shaman tries to purge that Freedom they could remove two of the existing three buffs instead. Then they need to wait 8 seconds for a second attempt at removing Freedom. In that eight seconds the Paladin could receive more buffs. For example if Kings was one of the buffs purged the Paladin could recast it themselves. So purge at that point can essentially be invalidated.

By adding the cooldown they changed the entire concept of purge. Purge should have just had its mana increased. That would discourage its use but allow it to be used the way it was designed to be used.

My main is a Paladin. The gutting of Purge was a huge buff for Paladins. So I would benefit from not talking about this lol.

It has always been this way and it is not subject to discussion.

I'm not quite sure that's the argument you would want to make on a Classic+ server lol.

You could tell Turtle mained Paladin. they were threatening to give Paladins un-disepellable seals or give the pruge an 8sec CD. Because that makes a lot of sense and totally "evens things out".

Same mentality when they made wing clip on Hunters a 5 sec cooldown. it was a good way of countering druids who would shift out of it, and if it gets parried, blocked or missed. you'd have to try again. Turtle tried to balance things for PvE, but it utterly fucked up PvP because none of them were even ankle deep in the PVP paint

[Knifewrench]

Ye give back old freedom and hand of sacrifice theb give 0cd on purge, result horde will cry paladin is op and got buffed.

[Ellinna3601]

I kinda agree or with your example about freedom. Purging FAPs and dispells is crucial and leaving it to RNG sucks. If seals were undispellable I could maybe be convinced with purge being reverted to no CD. It's specifically how a shaman could constantly remove your seals with 0 counterplay that warranted that nerf rightfully.

However, it doesn't help that shaman is extremely bursty and somewhat tanky at the same time. Making seals undispellable can fix the most glaring issue but you'll still be destroying priests and other classes that rely on self buffs.

If you think purge shouldn't have a CD, then hand of sacrifice should break CCs also to be fair. They were both nerfed for a reason in the same patch.

[Eamon]

Ye give back old freedom and hand of sacrifice theb give 0cd on purge, result horde will cry paladin is op and got buffed.

Not really. I would be happy with that. The shamans that are OP anyways are the ele shamans and the purge CD does little if anything to mitigate their power.