Nightfall community Dispute

[Shadowmak]

zero sympathy for fucking scammer stealing items, this man should be perma banned and gm removed from game. read octowow rules this fall 100% under scamming because price is adjusted after the deal and item withhold. this is extortion/blackmail. u guys can all pretend its not because the buyer was rude. but the seller is a criminal.

How can you adjust something that did not exist before? If they never talked about the price, it doesn't mean it is automatically zero. No rule says that. So it did not exist so they couldn't adjust something that did not exist before hand. The seller tried to fix it and tried to agree on price.

If u dont ask a fee and say any tip is fine 0g is a tip aswell, extorting someone for money while u hold their 500g in mats hostage is blackmailing. Thats intentionally making sure u first get their posesion before negotiating a price wich by definition is extortion, seeing crafter intentionaly crafted the item and put himself in a position he cant gibe back the mats and cancel the deal is not the fault of the buyer eventho giving 0g tip is rude. I qoute the rule seeing u guys clearly didnt read em
"Agreeing to a transaction only to steal the materials or attempt to extort a higher price is considered scamming, and is forbidden on our network."

And that is the issue. You are just assuming the crafter wanted to scam the hunter. By reading the communication, I believe he just wanted to say "whoa, tip 0 is kinda d*ck move, u sure bro?" and never got a chance to proceed with the transaction if hunter insisted on 0 tip. I think revisiting it like this and asking u sure is valid move and not extortion or scamming. If that would repeat though I'd agree with you.

[Knifewrench]

How can you adjust something that did not exist before? If they never talked about the price, it doesn't mean it is automatically zero. No rule says that. So it did not exist so they couldn't adjust something that did not exist before hand. The seller tried to fix it and tried to agree on price.

If u dont ask a fee and say any tip is fine 0g is a tip aswell, extorting someone for money while u hold their 500g in mats hostage is blackmailing. Thats intentionally making sure u first get their posesion before negotiating a price wich by definition is extortion, seeing crafter intentionaly crafted the item and put himself in a position he cant gibe back the mats and cancel the deal is not the fault of the buyer eventho giving 0g tip is rude. I qoute the rule seeing u guys clearly didnt read em
"Agreeing to a transaction only to steal the materials or attempt to extort a higher price is considered scamming, and is forbidden on our network."

And that is the issue. You are just assuming the crafter wanted to scam the rogue. By reading the communication, I believe he just wanted to say "whoa, tip 0 is kinda d*ck move, u sure bro?" and never got a chance to proceed with the transaction if hunter insisted on 0 tip. I think revisiting it like this and asking u sure is valid move and not extortion or scamming. If that would repeat though I'd agree with you.

The moment refuses to accept 0g tip is the moment his intent became extorting, did u read the chat in pictures? Also crafter is a warrior and its a hunter wanting the item, rogue cant even wield nightfall.

[Ziggler]

Tbh zero sympathy to anyone that doesn't tip. You got what you deserved.

im amazed he continues to publicly embarrass himself like this ....

[Uggerbugger]

im amazed he continues to publicly embarrass himself like this ....

Not sure why you are talking as if all public opinion is "buyers" side. I am amazed you are defending that behavior as if that's how we want people to be; people doing you a favor, then you exploit them.

EDIT: I might have misunderstood who Ziggler refered to, if thats the case: sorry, move along!

[Shadowgm]

Hello all,

A kind stranger pointed me to this topic and after reading I have decided to comment.

As a Game Master I have to make decisions based on not who is right or wrong but what is the best outcome and what rules have been broken.

When I ask a random person to make me minor speed on boots enchant (just an example) which is low value craft with low value materials I do whatever order of transaction, tip them like 5g and that is it.

If I want something rare to be crafted like +55 healing weapon enchant I usually start asking about fee 2-3 people in advance to check prices and what to expect.

After playing this game for ~20 years I think its a custom to ask the crafter about the fee before I hand the materials for a rare craft so I avoid disputes after the item is crafted and I have to receive it now.

In this situation the fee was not discussed beforehand. Crafter probably didn't mention the fee because he expected to be paid the usual price. I think we all agree that nobody expect to get epic weapons or gear crafted for free (unless its your friend or guild member).

At the end of conversation with the person who created the ticket I felt like they wanted the epic weapon to be crafted for free and when not getting it decided to leave the weapon with the crafter and asked for him to be banned. To me this didn't feel right at all.

In the end the ticket creator got his weapon for cheaper than the crafter usually makes them for. Nothing to do for me, except to inform that fee should be agreed on when making epic items.

I would only intervene if the crafter did hold on to the Nightfall axe which he didn't.

See you all in Azeroth!
Game Master Ulises

[Knifewrench]

Hello all,

A kind stranger pointed me to this topic and after reading I have decided to comment.

As a Game Master I have to make decisions based on not who is right or wrong but what is the best outcome and what rules have been broken.

When I ask a random person to make me minor speed on boots enchant (just an example) which is low value craft with low value materials I do whatever order of transaction, tip them like 5g and that is it.

If I want something rare to be crafted like +55 healing weapon enchant I usually start asking about fee 2-3 people in advance to check prices and what to expect.

After playing this game for ~20 years I think its a custom to ask the crafter about the fee before I hand the materials for a rare craft so I avoid disputes after the item is crafted and I have to receive it now.

In this situation the fee was not discussed beforehand. Crafter probably didn't mention the fee because he expected to be paid the usual price. I think we all agree that nobody expect to get epic weapons or gear crafted for free (unless its your friend or guild member).

At the end of conversation with the person who created the ticket I felt like they wanted the epic weapon to be crafted for free and when not getting it decided to leave the weapon with the crafter and asked for him to be banned. To me this didn't feel right at all.

In the end the ticket creator got his weapon for cheaper than the crafter usually makes them for. Nothing to do for me, except to inform that fee should be agreed on when making epic items.

I would only intervene if the crafter did hold on to the Nightfall axe which he didn't.

See you all in Azeroth!
Game Master Ulises

So because person was rude to crafter, crafters gets the right to extort? If so change the rules on octo wow. And ive playd since OG vanila, no where on my playtime since has extorting been justified for any reason. U should have deleted the item and gave crafter mats back or told the person breaking the rules not to.

[Uggerbugger]

Hello all,

A kind stranger pointed me to this topic and after reading I have decided to comment.

As a Game Master I have to make decisions based on not who is right or wrong but what is the best outcome and what rules have been broken.

When I ask a random person to make me minor speed on boots enchant (just an example) which is low value craft with low value materials I do whatever order of transaction, tip them like 5g and that is it.

If I want something rare to be crafted like +55 healing weapon enchant I usually start asking about fee 2-3 people in advance to check prices and what to expect.

After playing this game for ~20 years I think its a custom to ask the crafter about the fee before I hand the materials for a rare craft so I avoid disputes after the item is crafted and I have to receive it now.

In this situation the fee was not discussed beforehand. Crafter probably didn't mention the fee because he expected to be paid the usual price. I think we all agree that nobody expect to get epic weapons or gear crafted for free (unless its your friend or guild member).

At the end of conversation with the person who created the ticket I felt like they wanted the epic weapon to be crafted for free and when not getting it decided to leave the weapon with the crafter and asked for him to be banned. To me this didn't feel right at all.

In the end the ticket creator got his weapon for cheaper than the crafter usually makes them for. Nothing to do for me, except to inform that fee should be agreed on when making epic items.

I would only intervene if the crafter did hold on to the Nightfall axe which he didn't.

See you all in Azeroth!
Game Master Ulises

You did the right thing, thank you for your contribution to the server.

[Knifewrench]

Hello all,

A kind stranger pointed me to this topic and after reading I have decided to comment.

As a Game Master I have to make decisions based on not who is right or wrong but what is the best outcome and what rules have been broken.

When I ask a random person to make me minor speed on boots enchant (just an example) which is low value craft with low value materials I do whatever order of transaction, tip them like 5g and that is it.

If I want something rare to be crafted like +55 healing weapon enchant I usually start asking about fee 2-3 people in advance to check prices and what to expect.

After playing this game for ~20 years I think its a custom to ask the crafter about the fee before I hand the materials for a rare craft so I avoid disputes after the item is crafted and I have to receive it now.

In this situation the fee was not discussed beforehand. Crafter probably didn't mention the fee because he expected to be paid the usual price. I think we all agree that nobody expect to get epic weapons or gear crafted for free (unless its your friend or guild member).

At the end of conversation with the person who created the ticket I felt like they wanted the epic weapon to be crafted for free and when not getting it decided to leave the weapon with the crafter and asked for him to be banned. To me this didn't feel right at all.

In the end the ticket creator got his weapon for cheaper than the crafter usually makes them for. Nothing to do for me, except to inform that fee should be agreed on when making epic items.

I would only intervene if the crafter did hold on to the Nightfall axe which he didn't.

See you all in Azeroth!
Game Master Ulises

Please explain what rule the buyer broke? Because the seller broke the rules.

[Glade]

Simply for good communication, a lot of players ought to stop using the teens payment and tip synonymously. These are two different things, but a lot of the player base seems to think they’re the same. That includes within this thread.

And I can see how the “buyer” and “seller” in this scenario would both be confused with each other if there is miscommunication based on the above. Those terms are in quotes since the roles were never discussed beforehand. Without that discussion, one is more like a service receiver and the other a service provider.

I think rules should be more explicit. Payment is payment. And it ought to be negotiated before. A tip is always voluntary, extra, and shouldn’t be expected.
Without such clarification, I can see how a GM could go either way based on their own background understanding of what is appropriate - which may not be appropriate to another GM based on the latter GM’s background.
Clear communication helps everyone.

[Knifewrench]

Simply for good communication, a lot of players ought to stop using the teens payment and tip synonymously. These are two different things, but a lot of the player base seems to think they’re the same. That includes within this thread.

And I can see how the “buyer” and “seller” in this scenario would both be confused with each other if there is miscommunication based on the above. Those terms are in quotes since the roles were never discussed beforehand. Without that discussion, one is more like a service receiver and the other a service provider.

I think rules should be more explicit. Payment is payment. And it ought to be negotiated before. A tip is always voluntary, extra, and shouldn’t be expected.
Without such clarification, I can see how a GM could go either way based on their own background understanding of what is appropriate - which may not be appropriate to another GM based on the latter GM’s background.
Clear communication helps everyone.

The service provider clearly didnt negotiate a price, then withold item/mats for gold(extortuon). Its clear breach of octowow rules on their site.
I dont get how gms find breaking these rules okeh because they "think" its fair, what if service reciever tipped 1g instead, does this still give provider a reason to extort for money? Additional what he was extorted for 200g and not 20g is it then suddenly a breach of rules?
Also someone on discord has offerd craft for free, this would make market price 0g no? So.... where we going with this. Rules dont apply and we should simp for gms because else we might get random banned or other things because a gm feels like it?